Alexis: 0:01

Hello. Hello everybody and welcome to the SMO GO podcast. My name is Alexis Armstrong, your host. Nice to meet you. The SMO Go Podcast is a place to highlight and celebrate women working within STEM and trade occupations. So please tune in, take a break, join us. We're on SMO Go. And today is a very, very exciting day because we are joined by the living legend herself, Dr. Riva Bond, who is the first female dean in the school of construction at State, which is the Southern Alberta Institute of Technology, which is the best, if not one of the best technical and vocational schools in Canada. And she's the first female dean. So really let that sink in. That's a huge feat and it's an incredible honor to have you on the show today. She has a multidisciplinary career in hospitality, tourism, manufacturing, healthcare, and industrial construction. She has managed apprenticeships, diploma, applied degree and degree programs within the school of construction. School of Manufacturing and Automation and the School of Transportation within sat. She's also been an executive advisor of the Women in Trades and Technology, which is wit, which is a program we're gonna talk about a little bit later. And she has also founded the International Women's Day, the I W D Conference and Celebration ats. So Dr. Riva Bond has really done it all, and I can't wait to speak with her about her experience, her background in construction, mentorship and working in higher education, and also her. Research because she just finished her e d d where she looked at understanding complexity, leadership theory, and increasing female participation in non-traditional careers. So again, it's an honor to have you on the show, and thank you so much for coming up today.

Reva: 1:44

I'm blown away with your introduction. I'm like looking for someone else to, to, to come talk with you. It sounds exciting.

Alexis: 1:52

It's exciting. And that's you. It's crazy. Like when I, when I was doing this research, like kept things kept on coming up and I was like, oh my goodness. Like I, wow. I was blown away. Thank you. no, it's, it's, it's true. I was just completely blown away. And I, and I think that kind of goes into this first question. I was like, is this first question big enough? Does this give it with a resume like this? How, how do I, approach this first question because the first question is really understanding your career and your pathway of how you became the first dean in the school of construction. I mean, you also have two bachelor's degrees wa, one in psychology and one in microbiology and M B A and now an E D D, and then an extensive career in construction where you managed a hundred million plus projects. And I mean, you said that they were also on time and under budget, which is something incredible in the construction industry. So I don't know how, it's probably a small question, but how did you, this came to work in the construction industry and how did you fall in love with this field and come to work in higher education in this career path?

Reva: 3:06

Awesome. So, I am the youngest of six children, a farmer's daughter. I have four brothers, and my brothers, you know, were in the barn and in the fields and had dirt bikes, and I didn't, I cooked and cleaned and read books in the house. Wow. And so, you know, as I reflect back, it was a very female and male traditional roles. Mm-hmm. And so construction wasn't on my radar. And in fact, I, I probably, if I'd been given opportunities at that age, would've declined them. Mm-hmm. And think that's not for me. I, I don't have those qualifications. I remember, working as a waitress for 4 25 an hour and, you know, my male classmates were working on highways for$20 an hour. Yes. And yeah. And I was like, they're just holding a stop sign. I'm like, clocking steps, like mad and, and sore and tired at the end of the day. How, how is this fair? But you just kind of accept it because mm-hmm. There's female roles and male roles, you don't even really question it at that age. And so I went on a really traditional path. I think my yearbook says I was gonna be a dental hygienist. Never got even close to that. But it sounded good, right? You have to put something down on paper. And after. You know, my first two degrees, I was a family counselor and I was working in research and I was still only making$15 an hour. And I thought, wow. Like what? Like I thought, you know, I'd, I'd made it. I I had had it. And so when I landed, I came back out to Alberta in 2004 and just registered with a temp agency and, and accidentally landed in construction. Wow. And the company went from 10 people in an office to over 206 months, and there was just so many growth opportunities. Mm-hmm. And if you're curious, And if you're willing and you're reliable, you know, those basic, characteristics go a really, really long way in the workplace. Mm-hmm. And then when I found out that if I wore steel-toed boots and was willing to go to a job site, I could make a lot of money. Yes. That was my mission. I was, I was on the project managers and I'm like, I think I could be a real asset. I think I could help out. Like, what do you need? Like, amazing. And, and, and that's how, how it kind of evolved from there. And, You know, overnight, pretty much I doubled my income. So from$15 an hour to 30, and that's life changing completely. And so that has absolutely stuck with me. And so in this role, I'm really committed and excited to open doors for women. Mm-hmm. And there's absolutely no reason you shouldn't be making that kind of money, and you are actually bring new skills to construction that it's lacking. Mm-hmm. And, and so not only will you succeed, you, you have a niche. Yeah. And you can be your authentic self. And, we partner with companies that, that also value that diversity and inclusion and that are safe workplaces. So that's kind of, you know, bring it full circle. And opportunity came to come into education. I thought, oh, maybe finally all this education I attained will, will benefit others. Yeah. And, and so it was the perfect kind of marrying of, of everything that, that evolved over the years. And yeah, it's just a pleasure to be able to give back to construction and like I said, open those doors to other people that wouldn't have considered the opportunities.

Alexis: 6:33

That's a wonderful answer and thank you so much for walking through it because I think there's so many good things there. One of positioning the trades and construction as financial equity and just the ability to make the same amount and to make what you deserved other than living on a salary of$15 after receiving higher education. And that's all that you can get, right. Your first and then falling, kind of the serendipitous aspect of falling into construction. What was your first role when you first started in construction, before you decided that you could pick up steel toes and go to site and say, this is it.

Reva: 7:10

Yeah. I started off as the receptionist. I, I lead on I had worked in manufacturing and, and did some payroll and, basic costing, that sort of thing. And, and so I just took the first job that came up and it was a receptionist job. And I'm like, I got that. I can do that. And I leveraged the opportunities that came across my desk. So I was the person fielding all the phone calls, so I knew what projects we were bidding on. I, I knew what was coming down the pipe. I'm the one who received the drawings that, that had to get stamped, that created the bids that landed us, the jobs. And so I just kept asking a lot of questions, and inserting myself where I knew I could add value. And, it wasn't long like there, there is a need for talent in the, the construction industry and, It's a bit of a cliche, you know, everyone's talking about just be curious. Yeah. And then, and then it'll all come out. But I have to thank that I had mentors in construction that opened doors for me. Mm-hmm. And that's really important for women, even, even more so than men. And a lot of my mentors in construction were men that, that opened doors for me. And if they hadn't, I, I couldn't have got my foot in the door. Yeah. You can't do it alone. Okay. you need to kind of get the lay of the land, figure out where you can add value, and, and talk to people that, that will champion for you to, to get you onto the next project, to, to show others that, that you do have value.

Alexis: 8:36

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I think that you're correct in so many ways. I mean, yeah. Like, yes, everyone's saying the whole thing about curiosity and you hear it over and over again, but it does open doors and just having that tenacity and being able to ask questions. I mean, your testament to it, that it can. It can change your life and it can change your position in that. And I, I also agree that I think you do need mentorship. At the same time. I know in mining, I got my start by doing cold calls, which is similar to. Asking a lot of questions. I just wrote elevators all day and I just handed out resumes and that got me into the door. But I had to have someone accept it. I had to have some guy in the office being like, this kid has no idea what she's talking about. She's not, she doesn't even know a rock like she's 18 years old. Like, what? But we're gonna give her a chance because she's been riding elevators all day and we've seen her all week, so we might as well give her a job and send her to the woods. And that made all the difference in my career, and that's how it started. But I think, I think you're right. You need both, you need both curiosity and then people along the way to help you and, and give you a shot.

Reva: 9:42

And, and I would say, if I could talk to my younger self, it would be, don't stay too long in a role where there, there isn't that sponsor or mentor. Because when you find it, you're like, how did I like work all these years without that person or that champion or that relationship? And it takes, you know, work to a whole new level. Yeah. There's nothing like being part of a, a collaborative team and, and having that support and it exists in, in the coolest places that you wouldn't think to look. And so I encourage anybody, especially when you're young, don't stay too long if it's not feeling right. If you're not, energized at the end of the day, if work's taking more from you than you are getting from work, really, really think about a

Alexis: 10:26

change. Yeah. That's very, very good advice for, for all, for all working. I, I love it. I really do. Is just go where go where you're supported. Yeah. And, and don't stay too long. We're not supported. and one thing that you talked about in your original answer of this full circle moment and going into working in higher education, I mean, you've been an academic chair, an associate dean, and now a dean in multiple departments, construction, manufacturing, and automation, and transportation. What has been the most rewarding aspect of working in higher education?

Reva: 10:59

It's new every day. I had, totally incorrect, conceived assumptions about education. I thought, okay, I've been, I've been working 12 hour days in construction. I'm gonna come to education, work my seven and a half hours and go home. It's gonna be relaxing. No, I work probably 14 hours a day now. Yeah. But the most rewarding part of working in education is really seeing people again, five and 10 years later. Mm-hmm. And hearing how education impacted and, impacted and improved their lives and what paths they've been on. And, you know, they come back and share their stories of success and then they wanna mentor the next group of students. And there are people that you can call upon to be on your industry advisory committees and that sort of thing. And I'm, I'm still tickled pink when they come back and they're like, Reva. And I'm like, oh my God, you remember me? Yeah. Like, like I, I'm honored that I got to witness your evolution over those two or four years in your education. And so yeah. That, that is just so rewarding.

Alexis: 12:00

I could, I could only imagine that, right? Like that is also such a formative time in people's lives. Yeah. And they're so young when they first start and kind of just getting started with what am I interested in learning all these new things at the same time, trying to discover their path. And then so I could see after 10 years of them figuring out their niche and coming back and like geeking out about it to be like, I'm now in this one area of construction. Yeah. I could see it being really rewarding

Reva: 12:26

for sure. What was I gonna say about education? The student teacher dynamic mm-hmm. Is independent of age. And so it's really interesting because at say the average age of our student is 25. Oh, okay. So a little bit older than, you know, straight outta high school. And so for the average age to be 25, I mean, we've had students in their fifties and sixties coming back and changing careers and there's still this student teacher dynamic. It's, it's really neat to watch because age is irrelevant. That's cool. It's, it's about skills. Skills and where are you at and what do you need and where, what are you gonna learn? Mm-hmm.,and, and so that's really cool to watch

Alexis: 13:07

too. That's fantastic. I could also say with that dynamic, that ages, yeah. Ages, no. No, factor to this of this student teacher, but I could also see the teaching going both ways, right? Yes. Because like maybe you're learning a new skill or new technique or changing careers, but they're gonna teach you a lot about their old past career and, their life lessons as well, which is really, really cool.

Reva: 13:28

For sure. And I think adult education is absolutely that two-way learning, unlearning, relearning. And so that's what makes it so much better than anyone who, I don't know if you heard this as a kid, but high school's the best years of your life. Oh yeah. No. And I remember thinking, oh my God, like this is it. This is how good it gets. Like I was like appalled and for everybody out there, it is not the best years of your life. The best years of your life are, are to come. Mm-hmm. And adult learning is, is so different than high school learning because you've got all of the world experiences in a classroom and you're learning as much from your fellow classmates as you are from your instructor. And, and so it's that two-way dynamic and especially in applied education like sat where yes, we teach you a bit of theory, but it's really about the doing. And you know, how are you gonna take these skills now and, and, provide solutions.

Alexis: 14:23

Yeah, it's that like hands-on technical, holistic learning, which is really, really interesting. And maybe kind of diving into that a little bit more, being an educator and working within higher education, do you have a favorite like skill topic or like passion to really lecture on? And if so, why? Why is it your favorite and why do you love sharing this

Reva: 14:45

message? So I know we're gonna talk quite a bit about, one of my passions, which is increasing female participation in non-traditional careers because I think that level, the playing field, and, and financially but also socially, we, we can start to de-stigmatize, you know, doctors or males and nurses or females mm-hmm. And, and all those sort of things that we grew up with that I can already see in my daughters that they don't have those same level of ingrained stigma. But a simple concept that really led me down this whole complexity leadership path. I went to a conference in 2016 and the researchers were talking about paradox. Okay. So paradox is the concept that two opposing forces exist together. Mm-hmm. And so the example they were researching was, to increase the flow of traffic, you act actually have to decrease the speed limits. Mm. Okay. Yes. And so, yeah, so those seem opposing Yeah. When, when you first look at it. But research after research, that was the best solution to increase traffic flow. And so of course I almost think of the deerfoot, and how it could benefit. But anyways, and, and so fast forward as a manager and as a leader, there's so much frustration and paradox daily in everything you're doing. You, you've got your executive that got their goals and desires, then you've got the realities of the workforce and you're in between mm-hmm. Those opposing forces trying to just get things done and, and connect. And, and so paradox that concept when I realized like, oh, this just is like both are gonna exist. Both are gonna pull me in two different directions, and that is the role that, that's my job, is to make sense of it and, and to keep things moving in, in one direction. And so that, As silly, maybe as it sounds, brought so much peace. No, it not. And it just made sense of the chaos and mm-hmm. And sense of like, you know, how come this department doesn't know what this department's doing? And Yes. And you're, you're always stuck in the middle and, and so trying, just taking away any positive feelings or negative feelings about all those oppositions that you encounter every day and just neutralizing it and just saying, okay, it is. Mm-hmm. It just is. Yeah. And, and when you can release yourself of trying to label everything as good or bad, positive or negative, you can just kind of step back and, and problem solve in a different way with a, with a, yeah. New level of calmness that, that helps you really analyze and, and look at things and, and reach out maybe to people you wouldn't have otherwise. Ask questions and, and move forward.

Alexis: 17:27

I mean, I already feel that peace with just that idea of paradox. Like I, I could completely understand that it gives you that anchor point and that de-stress effect of all of a sudden it doesn't have to be good. It doesn't have to be bad. It just is what it is. They both exist and it gives you a good, from that neutral point, you can kind of work on anything in. A more easy way to do it, right? Like it's just, it's far easier to get a solution because all of a sudden it doesn't matter, you're not in conflict. It's okay that two things exist. One could be good, one could be bad, it doesn't matter. There's no conflict there. So I, I, I feel like that's a wonderful, mindset and framework and I could see it being extremely peaceful, especially if you're in leadership and in higher education. I bet you, you instantly, like who saw it at that conference to be like, oh my God, thank you so much for teaching me something that I'm gonna take with me throughout my

Reva: 18:17

education. Yeah, absolutely. And, and the theory kind of relabel conflict as creative tension. Oh, okay. And so in order to enter a collaborative or innovative space, there has to be some tensions cuz otherwise why are you problem solving? Why, why are you trying to challenge the status quo? And so creative tension obviously just sounds way better than conflict. Yes. And, and so when you're, you start from a different starting point, it, it matters, it makes a difference and it, it facilitates different

Alexis: 18:50

dialogue. Ah, I can see it because I, I feel like it takes away ego. Conflict is really ego. And you're one opposing force is trying to win against another opposing force. This is more solutions based. Yeah. Even if it's just, what, what was it called?

Reva: 19:04

Creative. Creative tension. Creative

Alexis: 19:07

tension. Yeah. It just sounds like you're trying to find a solution to that tension other than trying to win or dominate an idea. Right. One idea is supposedly better than the other. So that's, it's very, very cool. I like that a lot. Yeah. That's very, very cool. And one other aspect of your time at SAT and your tenure ATS is you've been heavily involved in the community and mentorship, and I know that that's something that's really important to you. Could you speak to the state program wit, which is Women in trades and technology, because this is your passion about increasing female participation within non-traditional roles, and you're an EXE executive advisor within this program. For people maybe unaware, could you speak to the program's mission and describe what the program

Reva: 19:52

is? For sure. So women in trades in technology, we endeavored to be inclusive from, from the get-go. And so we, actually looked at the population of our campus and how it's kind of gender segregated. And so in the School of Health and Public Safety, I believe our female, enrollment's about 90%. Oh, wow. Okay. Versus School of Transportation. Our female enrollment is less than 1%. I had to round up Wow. To get to

Alexis: 20:21

1%. Is that 1% or two people? Basically in

Reva: 20:25

the entire school. In a whole year. In a whole year. So imagine walking down the hallways and being in those classrooms and you are the one. Mm-hmm. So one, not inclusive, right? How like that's impacting your learning, your, your ability to absorb skill,

Alexis: 20:41

all of it. Your anxiety, everything. I will be all of it. Be walking nerve.

Reva: 20:44

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so, you know, that really brought to my attention the importance of like, okay, how do we support and start to change the tide? Because if we, we aren't even getting women in education in these sectors, how are they gonna get into the workforce? Yeah. And, and how are we finally gonna move the needle? You know, women in trades is at 5%. It's been 5% for 25 years. Yeah. And so this is absolutely a complex problem, which, which again supported me going down the path of, of complexity leadership theory to think about like, how could we start to really move the needle in a meaningful way? So women in Trades and technology, it started in 2015 and a few female trades instructors were just having coffee with their, their female apprentices and, and just that really informal mentorship and, and support and letting them know, you know, you're not the one, yeah, you might be the one in that classroom, but hey, we're all here on campus for you. And I was the one, yeah, yeah. I used to be the one. Yeah, exactly. So, so just that level of support. And then, from there we've expanded to, we have a number of industry, members. We have a newsletter. We have a formal mentorship program in the fall that is a group mentorship program. And so a group of students can get together and learn about a company and all the different roles. And then in the winter we do a one-on-one. And so we try to pair folks with their, career aspirations and, and values. But, but we go through some more formal activities. Cause the one thing about mentorship is, it is a skill and not. Not every attempt to facilitate is successful. Yes. Right. Sometimes it's a fit and sometimes it's not despite your, your career aspirations. And so, so we have a bit of a, a program to kind of lead people through that and, and give people the flexibility, like, you know, I don't think this is a good match, or I don't think that I can add value here. And you know, time and time again, our mentors feel like they're getting more value from mm-hmm. You know, interacting and, and, mentoring than, than the mentee. Maybe even does. And I, I know that is as myself, like mentoring is, is so fulfilling. Like, who doesn't love to like, impart their, their story and be like, oh, I think I could connect you to this person. Yeah. And you know, this, this is what happened to me. But don't do that. Learn from that and do do this other thing. So, so that's at the heart of women in trades and technology ats, and. Even our two year diplomas, technology fields, engineering technology, some of our programs, again, 5%, 10% women, and we have some technologies that are, are more of 50 50 balance. And so when I look at that, it's because there's female faculty. Yeah. Right? Like it's a, it's a no brainer. Like women need to see themselves in these jobs, in these careers. And, and so we need to be those role models and so we need to be visible. and so I'm happy to say we have hired more female trades instructors over the years. Unfortunately there's still the one in, in many programs and that's not enough. Yeah. That's, but, but it's a start. You know, we're moving in the right direction. One thing. A really neat experience we did with, autobody students. They were class of 16 and there was three women in fourth period autobody training. And typically there had never been any in fourth period. Wow. And there was three. And, and I was talking to the instructors and I'm like, why? How? And they're like, yeah, they usually drop out after second period. And I'm like, like is the industry that rough and tough? Like, why, why, why aren't they they retaining And it was basic biology. Who has babies?

Alexis: 24:30

We do. Yes. Yes.

Reva: 24:31

And, and it interrupts your apprenticeship stream and there's actually no pathway to get back on stream without having to repeat.

Alexis: 24:39

Oh my goodness. There was, which is so wrong. No, like that's completely ridiculous. You already have those skills, especially when it's a skillset set and like app apprenticeship to red seal pathway, like that's complet. Completely

Reva: 24:50

ridiculous. Definitely. So, we, worked with this group and, and we started to talk about inclusion and, you know, why did they think this and everything? And the male students had as many stories of, bullying or harassment, as the women. Yeah, I could imagine. And so, Like, these women are so brave to come forward, tell your story, and you need to know that you're actually making it better for everybody. Yeah. Because, because of the way things have sort of evolved and when men are allowed just to be men all by themselves, sometimes it's not a pretty pretty workplace and, and for whatever reason, there's some folks that wanna protect that. But it's really not necessary. And actually, you know, us being there, women being present and, and finding that balance makes the workplace better for everybody. Yeah. And I'll, I'll share one more story, my Yeah, of course. Please. My friend is in nursing. Mm. And, I, I met up with her after, you know, 20 years. I hadn't seen her. And, she goes, why are you here again? I go, oh, I'm, I'm at this Women in Trades conference. And I said, you wouldn't understand. And she's like, well, tell me about it. Yeah. And I said, well, well, you know, like my experience, I'm, I'm typically the only, woman at the table. I'm the only woman on the job site. And she goes, oh, I know exactly what you mean. She goes, when I work a night shift and a male nurse is on my team, it's a better

Alexis: 26:12

shift. Wow. That's such a different, yeah. I would've never thought of that. I was like, what do you mean everyone's a woman in it? But it's a complete reversal of the industry and a complete reversal of thought. I love that. And so it's

Reva: 26:24

about balance. Yeah. Like, like men don't lose because we came to participate. You, you actually have a lot to gain and vice versa. Mm-hmm. Like that, that's the beauty of it. And so, again, paradox that creative tension. Yeah. It's not win or lose, it's really actually something new and better. And the, the more we consider that kind of future, that's where we're gonna innovate. That's where things are gonna progress.

Alexis: 26:51

That's a really beautiful answer, Riva, thank you so much. That was wonderful. And I think the entire program, I mean the basic of the program of trying to tackle the. disproportionate percentage of female to male students within education is so important because the leaky pipeline is such a thing in industry that absolutely, if you're absolutely, you're only having one to 3% or three women within this automation course, right? This fourth year automation course, that's not enough, right? You're probably gonna lose 50% of those three people within the occupation right now with the leaky pipeline because of the problems and culture. So I think the entire program is fantastic and I think that's wonderful that, WIT was created. And what I love the most about it is that idea that it has, workplace mentor, that you have true work experience and, partnerships with industry. I think that's so important and I think that really, really helps mentorship as you step out of education and go into the industry. And one thing that stood out when you were talking about the mentorship aspect of it is you said, Some of the mentors get more out of it than maybe the mentees. And I could see that being completely true because I could see it being, you're talking to your younger self and this type of program. Yeah. Never existed when you went to school or when I went to school even, which wasn't that long ago. But this program we didn't have, so I would've been so excited to talk to like a past younger Alexis to be like, okay, this is what you have to do in mining. This is what you have to like go by. This is like what a work camp looks like. This is what like Northern Ontario winters look like. This is where you put your bug screen, like don't put it on your face. Like, you know what I mean? Just little things and, and mentors is along that pathway. It would've been so beautiful. So I think that's, that's very true. I could see that.

Reva: 28:39

For sure. a memory, we had a welding engineering, student and she was presenting to some grade eight girls. Mm. And, the girls, the girls were engaged and they were impressed. And, and she, she was just a, a very attractive woman. Long nails, everything and, you know, puts on her welding and all her gear and everything and, and can do it better than or as good as any, any man can. And the reaction of the teachers. Was really remarkable because if you think about it, teachers and educators, it's formal education. Yeah. And so they only know what they've experienced. Mm-hmm. And so of course, that's what gets promoting, promoted to our youth as a pathway, right? Yeah. Go to university, go do that. And so we're really missing, an opportunity to influence early on, which SAT does a lot of, we, we get into high schools. We have a career exploration center for grade eights. We have summer camps, which we're expanding into as young as grade three. Amazing. There, there's so much we can do. The research tells us that our mental models of gendering different roles, Is as

Alexis: 29:45

young as five. Oh my goodness. That's kindergarten. That is insane. I did not know it was that young, but it kind of makes sense. Even you were speaking about it growing up that you had non-traditional or traditional roles. Very, very traditional. Definitely pathway, right? Like that's fantastic that you guys are doing summer camps in so much community involvement in early education. That's wonderful.

Reva: 30:06

Yeah. It it, and it's a great fun part of the job for sure.

Alexis: 30:10

I love that. And I also love the idea that both genders and the entire workplace benefits when you have higher diversity, because I think that's, that's something completely, completely true. Absolutely. I think this is probably when we get more into the nitty gritty because this is your specialty, is really understanding workplace diversity and I mean your, research at e e D was specialized in understanding leadership and trying to increase the number of women within these non-traditional careers. And one idea was the complexity leadership theory. I tried to read some of the thesis. I did not understand most of it, I'll be completely honest. Could you maybe walk us through what is complexity leadership theory and how is that linked to increasing the number of women within these

Reva: 30:54

roles? So I'll, I'll be all academic for a second and I'll take us through a few definitions. So the difference between complexity and complicated. Okay, that's really important. So building an airplane is complicated. Right. Lots of parts. The engine, the windows, all the parts that go together. But, developing education is really complex because all the pieces, once they're together, can't be taken apart.

Alexis: 31:26

Okay.

Reva: 31:26

Okay. Let me walk through it. So comp, yeah. Complicated things are still parts. You could put it together or take it apart. Mm. But it's a bit linear. So, so, you know, with enough training and, and whatever you, you could get there, you could, you could tackle a complicated problem, but a complex problem can't be taken apart. You really have to look at it as a whole,

Alexis: 31:52

as a linked, like natural system almost. That like one, yes, one part will interact with another part and they're intrinsically linked. That if you take away one aspect of it, you're going to affect the other.

Reva: 32:04

Right. And, and you couldn't even, you couldn't even, so for the system, for the system to keep going, you can't take it apart once it's together. Gotcha. So, and I love what you said about natural. And so this idea that we're shifting in society from a mechanical view towards an ecological view. Ah, okay. And so we have more in common and complex problems and issues are more biological than they are mechanical. I could see that. Yes. Yeah. Right. Because biological, like, if you start taking off my skin or taking out my blood vessels, I die. Yeah. Completely. You're, you can't take me apart. Mm-hmm. And so complex problems, we always try to like zone in on the one thing. Mm-hmm. And, and that way of approaching a problem is, is really not serving us well. And so, so there is some momentum. There is a, a shift in thinking and, and I see it even happening in construction now. And I'm, I'm getting to speak at the, construction specifications Canada conference, next month. And so it's this idea, right, that, that we, we really treat projects and buildings as very linear, but a building, if we think of it as a human being, as a biological entity living. Is a very different viewpoint than a complicated thing that

Alexis: 33:30

we build. Yes. Yeah. Cuz it is that, that mechanical viewpoint would be that there is one problem child, and you fix that one thing or you take away that one part where, as you're right, construction is a living, breathing entity. Every single thing is intrinsically linked. That you can't, you can't take away something without it affecting, well, you can't even take it away. Right. Like that's the whole idea of complex problems. That's very, very cool. And it's a different way of thinking about really any of our industries or any of any project really.

Reva: 34:04

For sure. And I would say mechanical thinking is very short term thinking and it's kind of got us to where we are now. Right. There's all kinds of, environmental issues. Gas is expensive. Like ev everything that's come and where we are now is a mechanical way of looking at things. But in, if you take an ecological perspective and, and you know, it aligns really well with indigenous ways of knowing and that whole seven generations concept that in our current year we're just stewards of the earth. Mm-hmm. Right. And if we think about three generations behind us, our ancestors, and three generations ahead of us, how can we treat this earth? Wow. In a way Yeah. That it's better for our children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren. Mm-hmm. That, that shifts your thinking right away on, on how we treat buildings and how, how we treat road systems and, and all those sort of things because they're part of the earth. Mm-hmm. They're, they're not this one and done. Mechanical thing that we can just dispose of. They, they become a part of the earth. Mm-hmm. And so, so if we're just stewarding this earth for a short amount of time, how can we make sure it's in better shape?

Alexis: 35:16

I love that. I love that long-term thinking. And I like that from conception of a construction project to termination to like what, after the building has gone, how do you do part management? How do you do the full life cycle of it and the full impact in multi-generations? Reba my question to you would be, if you're stuck in this mechanical thinking, which I think probably most of us are, how do you move from mechanical to natural?

Reva: 35:42

So I gotta throw another set of definitions at you to try to try to tackle that. Yeah. So collaboration versus cooperation. Okay. So we hear that buzzword a lot. Yes. Collaboration. Collaboration. So construction is built on cooperation. I've got a decision. You've got a decision, we're gonna argue it out and we might be able to work together where we both get a little bit of what we wanted. Hmm, I see. That's construction. Okay. And that's why it ends up in litigation and

Alexis: 36:12

all other kinds of things. Right. Probably like years of budgets and also timeline shift, all of it creep all of

Reva: 36:18

it. Right. Right. And it just balloons and that's why, things are so expensive. But if we were collaborating, I would have an idea and you'd have an idea. But we come into a new space and that just becomes information that morphs and changes, and we come up with something new and better. Hmm. Where we both win. Yeah. Even better than, than our initial, original

Alexis: 36:43

positions. Yes. Our half step in that we both kind of have given up a little bit. We now can make a full step and we can actually make something new that we both benefit.

Reva: 36:52

Right. And so building information modeling. Okay. Bim, the software that, that runs a lot of the design, features of a construction project, kind of the starting point. BIM has the ability, to facilitate collaboration. Exactly. But in our industry, what we're doing still is, you know, the architect has a model in one system. The con general contractor has a model in another system, and then they just give 2D drawings to the Subtrade guy. Mm-hmm. And so we're not leveraging the collaborative power of a 3D model yet. And, and that's, that's a movement that's happening. And so, the conversation I love having is that the software is one piece of it, but our mindset is the other. And so the software isn't gonna be the solution until our mindset changes as well. Yeah. Because we're using this technical solution in a mechanical worldview still. Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right? And, and everyone's frustrated with the redundancy and, and the redoing and things not matching up and, but, we have to change our way of looking at it. And there's trust issues and all that other thing about collaboration. Mm-hmm. But, but that's the future of construction. And so that's where we start teaching our students right from the beginning. So we're working in bim, and 3D models, right from the beginning of their program. Very cool. And so we're looking at project management and design from that collaborative point of

Alexis: 38:22

view. That's fantastic. And that is a complete remodel of the construction industry. Again, I'm, I'm a geologist in my backgrounds in mining, so I am, I don't re know much about construction, but what I do know is that it's an industry filled with vendors and subcontractors that every single person represents either a different company or organization or a different specialty. And because of that, there's a lot of this traditional conflict and this traditional, you're trying to win a. Some piece of value or some piece of the pie and there's not much collaboration. So I feel like this change in mindset would completely change the construction industry. Probably could also go to mining. Mining also has a lot of that as well, and a lot of that subcontract kind of organization system. So, I really love that idea of collaboration, but I also love that software program and teaching it to your students. It's called bim,

Reva: 39:14

correct? Yeah. Building information modeling. Building information

Alexis: 39:17

modeling. That is very, very cool. And I love a new technology. I'm kind of a sucker for it, but like anything like 3D model or, or something new that we can use, I, I just think it's a fantastic thing and a fantastic thing to learn. That's lovely. Yep. That's awesome. And. Another one. I know that this is probably gonna be similar to it or maybe this is a tactic or technique of it, is another aspect of your research was really understanding the link between inclusivity practices, which I'm sure collaboration is one of'em, to increase innovation. Could you kind of walk through the findings, these two findings in this link, and then what are those inclusivity practices? What do those

Reva: 39:59

look like? For sure. So there's six, leadership strategies that really speak to inclusion. And, and I'll expand on one quite a bit cuz it was really exciting and, and changed even my understanding of complexity theory. So enabling leadership. Is about being in that middle space. So you've got your operational leadership, and that's the rules and regulations. Again, really heavy in construction, code, all those sort of pieces. You've got your entrepreneurial folks that are doing the marketing and making it look pretty and trying to be innovative, new smart technologies, all those sort of things. But enabling leadership inclusive practice really lives in between those two spaces. And so, one of the findings from my research was about creative tension. And I was looking for conflict. I, I was asking questions of my participants trying to uncover conflict to see how they turned conflict into innovation. Oh. And what I found was that creative tension isn't a verbal manifestation of conflict. Creative tension is the silence that we don't explore.

Alexis: 41:15

Oh, that's an interesting paradox. Like, I wouldn't expect that at all. That's, could you expand on that? What, what do you mean by that? That's really

Reva: 41:24

cool. For sure. So once I was able to, how I interviewed folks, I was able to line up their, value creation stories. Mm-hmm. And so when, when I was asking questions or about a particular event or incident, I was getting to see it from multiple perspectives. And so very often, one of the senior leaders would say, oh, you know, I presented the plan. Everybody agreed there were no questions, and everything went well. And then I would interview somebody who had been in that meeting and they would say, oh, yeah, they would say, I was so confused. I was so confused. I didn't even know how to ask a question. I was so confused. Yeah. Somebody else would say, I didn't trust the people in that room. Like I had a ton of questions, but there's no way I was gonna ask them in front of everybody. Mm-hmm. Somebody else would say, well, you know, in a past organization I worked for, this, this, and this happened to me. And so I learned from that that I should not speak up in this current situation. And so, wow. It was amazing how even people's past experiences 10, 15 years ago. Yeah. So influencing, influencing the action they would take in the meeting of today. And it presented as silence. Yeah. I can. And so that very, so that's a very complex, logical pathway to not speak up. Mm-hmm. And there's no other way to uncover the silence, other than for leaders to be brave and ask more questions. Mm-hmm. And so we need to create safe spaces. And so some of this links to psychological safety, which is in the oh and s now, since 2018, psychological safety, safe places, are a precursor to inclusion. Yeah. So if we don't create spaces for real dialogue to happen, we, we aren't truly inclusive and we aren't collaborative and we can't innovate. Yeah. So that's gonna completely break that cycle. Yeah. All of that is linked together. And so from that, you know, that's, that's one thing. What we do in our team is we do a check-in question each before each meeting starts. And so that's just to let everybody take a few minutes and, you know, just be your authentic self. Where are you at today? Right? Were, were the kids late for school and didn't need breakfast, and you got here in 30 seconds before the meeting started, or did you go for a run, have a great breakfast, you were here an hour early. Just, just allowing everybody to just kind of, even set and where are you at today? Right? And, and create that safe space for people to feel like, okay, now I can contribute. Right. I, I've put that aside or, or I can see the temperature of the room. I know where everybody's at now. Now let's really tackle this problem in an honest way with some, some good discussion. And, and deliberate dialogue. So not necessarily debate, cuz debate is always about defending your position. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But about deliberate dialogue. It's about learning and being curious. And improving and, and seeing like, okay, you need this and I need this. And so how could we get both of those And you know, Jack needs this and Judy needs that.

Alexis: 44:43

Yes, exactly. Yes. Yeah. Going back to that holistic natural system, I, yeah, I just think that's such a fantastic finding and it's so important cuz it wouldn't be exactly what you would think originally to be like, the whole problem is silence. Right.

Reva: 44:57

And my questions, like, my questions were looking for conflict and when it was, it was like it just popped off the page. I was like, oh my God. It's silence.

Alexis: 45:08

It's completely opposite. You expect conflict to be this yelling match and to then find out that the root of conflict is silence and how insidious. Silence is and what goes into creating that silence, right? Because that could potentially be a shameful event that happened 10, 15 years ago where you were not within like a psychologically safe space and you were shamed and now you're gonna completely change your behavior. So that's very, very hard to combat and to even understand, one, to get someone to feel comfortable enough to be like, this is why I am quiet, right? Because that's a lot of shame there as well. And then, to then move forward. It's, it's a very complicated issue, but it's also really important to understand that it's silence based in conflict. It's not this yelling match in it. And I think one thing that, for inclusivity practices that you could bring forward, something that you said that was really interesting is that leadership can ask more questions. Cuz I think that we always ask our. Are there any questions? Yes, completely. We put all the work on other people other than being like, you know what? I should be curious to the people that I'm presenting to and to my group, I should ask them more questions than expecting them to only to like to come to me at all times. And if they don't come to me, then everything's fine. You know what I mean? I give them their chance, they said nothing. We're good. We're gonna keep going. Yep. Right. Like, that's, that's such a common thing in leadership. So I think that's a, a very powerful practice that you could put into play.

Reva: 46:41

For sure. And so as, as a part of silence, I, I labeled some of the findings as three different types of memory. Okay. And so there was inside memory, outside memory and absent memory. The study was a big change management effort. And so through that, a lot of people had left the organization. And, and so there was a lot of conflict in silence because the people themselves that would've had the knowledge to, to, to, contribute to this solving this problem didn't exist. So, so that was absent memory. And now the funny thing is you would think that's all as negative, but it's not because sometimes the absent memory was positive because it created space for innovation. And so it wasn't somebody saying, this is the way we've always done it. Yeah. It was actually like, oh my God, we don't know how we're gonna do this. And everybody came. Someone came together and said, okay, let's figure it out. Okay, we're gonna do this. So, so that's kind of neat. And then, inside memory was people who had been part of a change experience within the institution in the past, and they brought all that memory with them. And again, it could be good or bad. Or bad. Yeah. And so we had had a technological rollout a few years ago and, I'll paraphrase, but it was a disaster. And so folks that were a part of this change management and they had that memory of that past event, ah, they kept bringing that past event. It's not gonna work into how they Yeah. Behaved they exactly. Skepticism and, and that sort of thing. But also again, so it wasn't all as negative. Some of those same people were determined to make this one better. Very cool. They're like, I don't wanna live that again. Yeah. So I'm using that past horrible memory to make sure I do things differently this time. And then the last, the third type of memory was outside memory, and I kind of alluded it to it earlier. It was folks that outside of the organization that were new, but were still bringing memories and experiences with them from their past role, their past organization. And so if you think about how complex, you've got 10 people now with all these different kinds of memory. Yeah. And they're not speaking it. So you as a leader need to be asking questions that reveal. Really where people are at really being inclusive in order to collaborate. In order to innovate. Yeah. And, and so, you know, really drilling down to where you need to start, it is much, much sooner than a lot of leaders, managers, change management, give people space and time to do. That's

Alexis: 49:17

probably something that has to start like right off the get go is start this exercise in trying to understand your people and trying to ask them questions. Cuz I think you're also looking at memory or I would look at it originally to be like, okay, well one person has one type of memory. I bet you every single person has all three types totally on different levels. So it's, it's even more complicated with just one individual. And again, it could go positive, negative on either way. That's nine options, right? Like it's just this walking exponent that's gonna increase every single time. So, I think that's fantastic. And, and maybe stepping back from an individual aspect, but to an organization is to take these inclusivity practices, kind of like one step further. If an organization wants to increase, the number of women wants to increase the amount of collaboration, innovation, and diversity within their, their group, what do you believe that they can do? What can organizations do to really increase the

Reva: 50:12

participation? So we're working on this with intention at, at our organization. And so we're, we're bringing to people's awareness, those unconscious biases. One, one, obvious one is names. And if you can't pronounce their name, you may go on to the next resume. It. And, and that, that's a human tendency, that I, I can think of my past self, 15 years ago, I would've been guilty of if I had 200 resumes in front of me, and I couldn't pronounce somebody's name. You, you go on to the, the next one. And, and that's just, just inappropriate. So we're, we're looking at blind, ways to review a resume without knowing gender or name. That's fantastic. Yeah. And there's software that can do that. Inclusive practices like who you put on your hiring committee even speaks volumes. I have been on so many hiring committees where it's all white men and it's like, there's other people Yeah. On the team that you should consider, putting, putting on that, that hiring, panel. Because the diversity of perspectives, it's huge when, when you're discussing, Those sort of things. So, so there's small things that every company can do, but again, it's not a silver bullet. There's no one

Alexis: 51:29

solution inclusivity practice. No, it's not that easy. It's not mechanical. No. It's a natural holistic system.

Reva: 51:34

It's ecological. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so you gotta be committed for the ride. You gotta be committed to grow and keep learning. And so I think that's what companies can do is keep learning, and keep admitting, you know, we did that last year, but now we know better. So now we don't do that anymore. And, and learning, documenting, improving, and supporting their people to do the same.

Alexis: 51:55

I think that's so powerful. And I think that's also like a testament of something that you just did that you admitted to be like, yeah, 15 years ago I probably would've done that. And like, it's inappropriate and, but just acknowledging it is extremely powerful because I think that is sometimes when you get silence because it's, it's rooted in shame, right? You don't wanna admit to be like, oh, hey we, we messed up. And if an organization can do that, of admitting past faults and then learning and growing, I think, I think you're right. I think it will make a huge difference. And maybe this segues us into our next question is, this one's a little bit lofty, but if we're talking about the future of construction in terms of equity, how do you believe, like what does this future look like in your ideal mind, and how do you believe that we get closer to this future? What step, what are steps that we could do right now to get closer to this future?

Reva: 52:50

So one thing that I've discovered through working in applied education is that where our students are constantly, or our graduates sorry, or are constantly getting feedback, they're, they're technical skills are phenomenal. Mm. Industry loves their technical skills. Yes. but their communication skills are lacking. And so what we often do is we go down a technical solution way, but one depends on the other. And so what, what we're really focusing on when we're designing new education, new experiences is human skills and technical skills. And we have to develop both. If, if you are only developing one, it, it's not gonna, it's not gonna meet the test of time. And we're not gonna, you know, change the construction industry to be more equitable. And, and so for, for me, the construction industry in Canada is about 65% of our gdp. So yeah, huge. All the different, huge, yeah. Banking, real estate. Yeah. All the whole land development, all of it. Resources, everything. It's huge. So again, it's complex, it's all connected. And so for, for us to be more equitable, I think we need to be looking at why we're building a project, why we're designing a project, who we're designing it for. And we need to engage with those people and those stakeholders from the beginning. There's a new process in construction. I might have the acronym wrong, idp. So it's about integrated design from the very beginning. And so you get together, with the architect, the owner, the subtrades, the contractors at the beginning. And so it's a very slow project at the beginning, but they're finding the cost savings and the time saving once they get to the end. And the product, the building, the project is so much better. And so I D P. Of course would probably be using BIM as one of the technical solutions. Yes. But I, DP is really starting to formulate that human structure around the technical solution. And so, you know, how do we structure the contract differently so that we get all of the stakeholders at the table sooner. Mm-hmm. And, and really facilitate true collaboration because the technical solution didn't give us collaboration. No, it

Alexis: 55:11

exists. Full figures us. But like we need to be in the room correctly before we can actually use that program, as it's intended.

Reva: 55:18

Yeah. And so, what, what I have been doing a lot, I have three daughters. And so my, my interest in this was always like, Hey, that's what I went through. I really don't want them to have to go through that. How can I make things better? And, and I think from an equitable, lens equity, the best thing we can do is start to question our systems and structures. If we look at government, if we look at how our city runs, if we look at most simple processes, they were all designed with a patriarchal lens. Hmm. Because men were in power and, and men made the rules. Mm-hmm. But we're 50% of the population. Yeah. And there's a lot of things that we've accepted. We've just accepted it, but it doesn't work for us. Yeah. It wasn't designed for us. It wasn't designed for us. Yeah. When we provide input and provide feedback, we make it better for everyone in the system. Mm-hmm. So it's not about women winning, it's not about maybe some of those negative mental models we have of feminism and burning our bras and Yeah. All those sort of things. It's really about, this could be a pathway to make things better for

Alexis: 56:26

everybody. Yeah. Like it's about like elevating everyone. And I think it's also about making a system more equitable for the entire population when a system was designed for only 50% of it. Definitely. And I think that idea that yeah, you are just gonna make it better. Any more diversity if you added into any project. I mean studies after studies show that you have better innovation and you have a better solution in the end. And it, it helps the entire culture of it. So I think, I think that's a fantastic, fantastic point and fantastic answer. And I love also the, the callback and that full circle moment of integrating BIM and that collaboration right from the very beginning with all of the stakeholders and maybe ensure the proper stakeholders are there again, that it's not just the stereotype of project managers and subcontractors, that it's kind of looking at construction in a multi-generation view. Yeah. So bringing in multi-generations of stakeholders, I think that's a fantastic thing. That's, that's absolutely lovely. I love to see that. I hope that's the future. I think it will be. That's amazing that it could be that integration of collaboration and I D P and then integration with B I B I M bim. Yep. BIM integration with bim. Fantastic. And this is, we're at the top of the hour. This is gonna be our last question, but again, another lofty one. Sorry, I kept two lofty ones at the very end. But just for young women who are maybe just starting within this industry, what would be your advice for them if they're just starting or maybe they're a little bit nervous about working within a male dominated field and breaking out of that, into a non-traditional role, what would be

Reva: 58:09

your advice to them? For sure. So I'm gonna offer a paradox. Okay. Love it. It's, I think absolutely one of the best things you can do early on in your career, is be genuinely curious. Hmm. And, and that takes a, a bit of effort because it's, it's not about just asking a lot of questions, it's about recognizing what's for you and what isn't for you. And so, like, if you're not, again, in the right workplace, if the work isn't exciting to you, if you don't have genuine questions, I, I would really encourage you to change. Yeah. It's, it's never too late, but when you're young, oh my goodness, you have nothing to lose. Mm-hmm. Don't, don't stay in anything too long. So be genuinely curious and check in with yourself and make sure that that's genuine. And then that has to be balanced. And this was something I lacked immensely in my youth. You need to be patient. Oh yeah.

Alexis: 59:03

You need to be patient. That's a struggle. Yeah. Yes. Yeah,

Reva: 59:06

yeah. Right. That's hard when you're done and I mm-hmm. And I'm still not very good at it. But at least I'm more aware of it. Yeah. You know, often there's two, three, maybe even four generations in the workforce. And so how you are seeing things as this young, bright, you know, fresh new isn't the point of view of everybody. And so, you know, I encourage you to slow down, be patient. If you're trying to make change, bring people along with you. Yeah. Because change is only sustainable if you've brought everyone along with you. Oh, completely. Yeah. You know, it's, it's one thing to have ideas out on the periphery, but you're just gonna be out there all alone if, if you're not bringing people with you. And so that takes a lot, a lot of patience. And so, you know, those two opposing forces, you, you wanna keep in balance and, and be checking in with yourself. And, and if you, if you are that reflective individual that's doing that, you are gonna do very,

Alexis: 1:00:04

very well. That's fantastic advice. So if I can paraphrase, it was, be authentic and check in on yourself and make sure that you feel correct within a position that this is suited to you, that you're genuinely curious and it's coming from a place of, Genuine knowledge searching that you're so interested and involved in this. And then the second one was patience, especially in terms of change because there is multi-generations within an industry and culture and your ideas are maybe what, what you've been brought up with. They have probably have no idea what's e, what that even is or what that looks like. They don't know these, these things. You don't know their world, they don't know yours. And just to be patient and bring everyone along if you wanna make longing, impactful, change to a culture.

Reva: 1:00:49

Absolutely. Well

Alexis: 1:00:50

said. Wonderful, wonderful advice. Thank you so much for this time. It was so lovely to have you on the podcast. I learned so much. I am blown away by your research and it is just so interesting to hear. So thank you so much for coming out today. It was an honor.

Reva: 1:01:06

Thank you. And I love the podcast, so keep up the great work.

Alexis: 1:01:10

Okay, will do. Thank you. Bye guys. This