Alexis 0:01

Hello. Hello everybody and welcome to the Smoko Podcast. My name is Alexis Armstrong, your host. Nice to meet you. The Smoko Podcast is a place to celebrate and highlight women working within the stem and trade occupations. So please tune in, take a break, and join us. We're on SMO O. It's extremely lovely today that we are joined by our guest, Dr. Jessica Inno Hoja. She is a climate scientist working specifically within the energy transition. She currently works at Shell as a nature-based solutions researcher. She has over 10 years of experience as a climate scientist with her research specialty in wind variability and understanding climate forcing mechanisms on this variability. She is then working at Shell, working on understanding how to unlock high quality carbon credits. So we're extremely lucky to have her on the show today. We're gonna speak all things energy transition, her research, her pa, her. Trajectory into geology and climate science, and also being a mom, and a woman in stem. So thank you so much, Jessica, for coming on today. It is an honor to have you on the show.

Jessica 1:06

Yeah. Thanks so much for having me, Alexis. I'm super excited to talk about all these things.

Alexis 1:12

Honestly, it's, it's wonderful to have you on the show and, I can't wait to get into it, but maybe just to start, could you kind of walk us through how you became a geologist and climate scientist? How did you discover this field and what was kind of the moment that you fell in love with it, that you decided that this is gonna be what I'm gonna do?

Jessica 1:30

Yeah, so I mean, I think it started when I was a kid, which is, you know, for a lot of people who have, I think, deep, deep passion around their careers, that's, you know, it's usually something tied to your childhood. But, yeah, ever since I was a little kid, I kind of always felt like a naturalist and, you know, it was, going, I had kind of a few. Key mentors throughout my childhood who, made me realize that the natural world is like this very exciting space to explore and learn about. So, you know, had a, a family friend who was like, kind of like, had encyclopedic knowledge. Like you'd go on a hike with him and he would name every single tree species and tell you about like the weird way that that specific bird, you know, regurgitates. To it's baby birds or whatever. And it was like, wow, this is so cool. Like there's so much you can learn and know about nature. And it was very grounding, you know, so I always kind of loved being outside and, and learning about the natural environment. And then as an undergrad, actually thought I wanted to do political science, and, took a, a really cool class, which was, the, it was actually around kind of science communication and science journalism and specifically how climate change is reported in science. And I mean, this was back in like, The early two thousands. So, yeah, well before, kind of like climate change was a common news topic, it was a little bit more, niche back then. But the, the cool part about that class was it was understanding complex science issues like climate change and then how do we distill it for. Sound bites and news clips, and for just kind of general public understanding. And in that class I was kind of like, wow, I really am way more drawn to the science side of things than the like com side of things. So yeah, switched to my major, into kind of an interdisciplinary environmental science. Space, and then kind of continued on and did, graduate studies in geology and the field of paleo climate. So understanding, ancient climates, on earth through the rock record, which is where I yeah. Spent all of my academic career before moving into, into industry.

Alexis 3:40

That's so cool. Thank you very much. I love that story. I love a good child naturalist background of, that's like when you become in love with the natural world and with climate. Cuz I think it is true anyone who works in natural sciences, I think that's the moment when you're like, just like collecting bugs or fish or something and being like, this is the coolest thing and this is what I wanna do. I love also that you went into kind of poly sci to start with and to go into that program of, climate science communication. I think that's a fantastic background to start in because. As a scientist you need that, and that's wonderful that then that's how you transition. That's so cool. I lo I love it. I love the whole

Jessica 4:17

story. Yeah. Yeah. It's very, was very, circuitous. But then I, then I got here and became like a hardcore scientist, you know, so that wasn't the intent when I went off to college.

Alexis 4:27

Yeah, it's like weirdly in a way that you stumbled into it, but at the same time it's also a full circle moment. It's also been something ever since a kid that you've been interested in, so it's it's beautiful in both ways. Yeah. Your PhD, you mentioned that it was in geology and that was all of your academic and research background was in geology and it was really focused on understanding the southern hemisphere's, westerly wind records. Could you explain maybe to someone outside of the field why wind records and wind variability? Why is that so important and what does it show us?

Jessica 5:00

I mean, if you look at like the the title, I don't even remember the title of my PhD dissertation, but it is like, you, you read it and you're like, woof, like this is gonna be a very dense topic. And it, and it, you know, it, it was in some ways because it was basically what I was doing, was trying to. reconstruct, like really, really high resolution, wind variability in Southern New Zealand. And so it's like, Hey, why does that matter? Like, why would somebody care about that? But I think what's really fascinating is trying to link very small climate components to the, the large climate system. And so the reason why this particular topic was important is the way that, Really kind of how the Southern hemisphere works in terms of, of climate dynamics. So, you know, most of the world's population lives in the Northern Hemisphere. Mm-hmm. And, we, we actually, a lot of our like background understanding of, of climate dynamics is based on northern hemisphere dynamics. Yeah. And the northern hemisphere is covered mostly by land. In the Southern Hemisphere, you kind of have this opposite thing where you have the Southern Ocean, which covers, most of it, you know. Yeah. Covers most of it, and it goes all the way around. And the Southern Ocean is also one of the most important. Regulators of global climate. So it absorbs a lot of co2. But there's parts of it that also emits co2 and there's really strong winds that go over the whole southern ocean and they move up and down and they also change in strength. And so if you have them move to basically park over the area where CO2 is coming out. Then the, the net carbon sink is reduced. If you have them move and get to the point mm-hmm. Where, you know, they're, they're pushing more CO2 into the ocean, then you have, you're sucking up more co2. And so this dynamic is incredibly important, even on, on modern time scales, you know, so, really the intent of my work was to say, What, how did these wins move and change in the past? And I was looking at it through two different time lenses. So one after we came out of the last ice age around 18,000 years ago. Mm-hmm. And then the second timeframe was over the last 2000 years. So can we look at like high resolution like. Decade to decade, how the winds moved and changed. Wow. And all of that was trying to inform, like, that's very cool. What, like, what are the drivers of the winds moving around? And then what does that mean in terms of kind of global climate? So that was, that was the, wow. The, the kind of driving, force or factors behind the, the research. So it was really cool. I loved, I loved my research a lot actually.

Alexis 7:35

It's so cool. Like the entire thing is fantastic because even just the fact that we know more about the Nuland Hemisphere and how that has influenced our research and our understanding of climate is also just a crazy stat in itself just because that's where a lot of people live and where, where the research coming from. So the fact that it's down in the southern hemisphere, it's a complete different system than what might be. Predominantly within the literature, and then the idea that using wind as a CO2 record, I think that's really, really cool and something very different that I don't think many people even realized you could do. So that's, yeah. That's

Jessica 8:10

fantastic. Yeah, it's, I mean, that's what I think is really cool. I think is really cool about the paleo climate world is that everything is a proxy for something else. And so you're, you can't like go back in time and measure things correctly. I mean, Maybe if you like take a bubble from an ice core, you can get an actual CO2 concentration. But in general, when we're looking into the past, yeah, we have to measure things that tell us that are some proxy for some, some, you know, component of the climate system. So we can't go back and see what the temperature was. 10,000 years ago. But we can say, well if it was hotter, this would've happened to sediments. And you know, and I can measure that now. So it's really cool cause you're just kind of constantly trying to create scientific links between what you can measure in sediments and rocks. Mm-hmm. And what the system was like at the time. So it's, it's, it's just kind of like a forensics job. It's, it's pretty cool.

Alexis 9:09

Yeah, completely. It's like definitely forensic or a puzzle piece of trying to like piece together paleo climate and paleo environment, which is really cool. And I also think for general public, maybe they don't realize that everything is linked, right? That like one little key over here in New Zealand will tell you about the entire ocean. Ocean chemistry potentially of that time period. Right. So that's, it's just really, really cool. And it's very interesting, complicated research because wind variability, I feel like there's so many different things that could affect wind strength or wind direction at that one time. So having your two time slots and your high resolution is

Jessica 9:47

just really cool. Yeah. Yeah, it was awesome.

Alexis 9:50

And after you completed this research, so once you were done in the New Zealand and looking at paleo oceanography and finished your postdoc at Caltech, which you also did a bunch of oceanographic cruises as well. Through this research, you then moved on to working at Shell as a nature-based solutions researcher. And this was specifically within the energy transition and unlocking high quality carbon credits. Maybe for those who don't know what a carbon credit is, could you explain what it is? How do we unlock it, and then how do we deem that something is high quality? What does that look

Jessica 10:22

like? Yeah, so I'll start just by quickly saying that I, I actually joined Shell in, in the upstream space, so kind of like in on the traditional oil and gas side. So I was an organic geochemist for a couple of years, working in our more traditional businesses and then transitioned to, to the team that I'm on now, which is the nature-based solutions team, in part because. I was really passionate about the energy transition and, you know, shell, as one of the energy majors, really was doing a lot in terms of kind of pushing the boundaries and making moves in this space. And nature-based solutions was a really exciting space where they really were kind of market leaders, in, in this realm. So yeah, I'll explain kind of the basics of, of carbon markets because it is a bit, you know, it's kind of a new concept. So essentially, I'll start from the beginning kind of, but, you know, when we have, when we think about the emissions that we have to deal with as part of the energy transition, there's some emissions that we just have to avoid altogether. Okay. So it's just cutting down activities. Cut. Basically cutting activities that we can replace with zero carbon alternatives. Yes. Okay. So that would be like replacing a coal fire, a Coalfire power plant with a solar farm, you know, so it's like you're going from high emissions to zero emissions. Yeah. The next thing you would wanna do is just to reduce the amount of emissions. So if you take. Car fuels, for example, you would wanna go from traditional fossil fuels to biofuel blending, and so the carbon intensity of your product is, is lower. So you still have emissions, but you're at least cutting less. And then the, the last thing that you can do for the really, hard to decarbonize sectors. Is basically say, okay, we need technology to figure out how to run planes on zero carbon fuels, or we need to figure out how to, support like heavy industry on zero carbon fuels. Those things are, are very early stage right now. So in the meantime what we can do is. Offset those emissions with other forms of carbon sequestration and kind of the most, the most accessible, affordable way to do that is through nature-based solutions. Okay. Nature-based solutions are the protection or restoration of natural ecosystems. And when you do an activity that, That protects or restores these ecosystems, it leads to carbon sequestration or the avoidance of emissions. And if you can quantify that, you can generate carbon credits. So one carbon credit is equal to one ton of co2. And if you fly a plane, for example, and you have some emissions associated with that plane flight, you could then turn around and buy a carbon credit from a nature-based solutions project. And apply it to the emissions of your plane flight and offset it, basically. You can only do that once, so you can't use a carbon, it's not like currency that you can use over and over, but you could say, okay, fat tree grew, you know, and I, I sequestered carbon and so now I'm, it's trade. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so when you hear the term net zero, which is a common term in the energy transition, the net zero, the net part of it is saying that we're gonna continue to have emissions, but we just compensate your, offset them with carbon credits. The big kind of push right now in this space is making sure that a carbon credit that you can trust that it's equivalent to one ton of CO2 equivalent. You know, a emission reduction. Yes. And so that's really where my team and our work comes in, is that we work on. The technology to, to increase scientific, robustness and transparency in the accounting of these ecosystems. Mm-hmm. So, you know, nature's very complex. It's very hard to like fully constrain and quantify everything in nature. But what you wanna be able to do is say, I planted this many trees and I'm gonna go back every five years and measure how much they grew and how many of them died and you know, yeah. And basically get a quantitative assessment of how much carbon was sequestered over that time. Trees are kind of an easy example cuz that's what most people think of when they think of nature-based solutions. But then there's all these exciting emerging spaces. Like traditional. The trees are the traditional thing, but that would require a lot of land. If we wanted to just plant trees, we would take up too much land of forests. So now the, the next wave of nature-based solutions is, okay, how can we change agricultural practices to, to. Sequester more carbon in soils or in, in coastal ecosystems. That's really where my team spends a lot of time is looking at those novel pathways and novel technologies to increase, our understanding and quantification of, of the systems.

Alexis 15:14

Very, very cool. Thank you so much. That was a wonderful walkthrough too, I think, of the carbon credit model and like kind of market because I think it's so new. It's really exciting. Mm-hmm. And everyone wants to understand it, but it's, it's a very new concept. So thank you for walking through. Kind of ways that we can reduce carbon, completely eliminate it. With a new technology that can replace a pass system, we can either minimize it by changing to say like a biofuel, like you mentioned, or hybrid, and then the ones that we can't, so like our heavy, heavy industrial, and then, Your job, if I understood correctly, was kind of as scientists trying to create the model and blueprint of what does this look like? How do we qualify it? What are our like parameters that we're looking for? How are we measuring this? And then what is the timeline? So how are we marking this with time as this natural system kind of evolves and changes? So like trees die, or a new species gets introduced into this region, how does that affect it? My, my question to that, is that model, is that specific and private to Shell, or is there a public model that's being used throughout the industry, or is that every kind of group trying to create one for themselves and what works in that natural system? Because each natural system is gonna be different as well. It'll be hard to quantify one model and put it to somewhere else.

Jessica 16:35

Yeah, no, that's absolutely right. And so I mainly work in, there's just like an additional layer of complexity, but I mainly work in the voluntary carbon market and sorry, that's, that is, yeah, that's like kind of where private industry, There's also compliance markets, which are like when governments are requiring, emissions reductions. Oh, okay. But on the voluntary carbon market, there are kind of, a few, Key, high respected, or well respected what are called registries. And they're kind of these third party bodies that put out methodologies that are like, here's the cookbook, wonderful for this specific ecosystem. And so it is very much a transparent, you know, everybody has to follow the same sets of rules type approach. So, so yeah, we don't, we don't kind of make up our own, own our own way of doing things, but sometimes, sometimes they'll, or, or like, yeah. I mean, you know, we don't have bespoke Yeah. Ways of doing things, but, sometimes the requirements will either be, have kind of like I. A low, a low bar. So sometimes it'll be like you can use, if you don't wanna go measure the actual amount of carbon in the soil, you can use this default number. So that's, that's a fine approach. But then, my team might say, well, why don't we make it so that it's easy for everybody to get the actual data, you know? There, there's, there's a common, common set of rules based on the different, different kind of activities that you could do.

Alexis 18:02

No, that's wonderful. And it, it wasn't like a a, a catcha like, oh, are you guys not following the world?

Jessica 18:07

No. Yeah. Yeah. I I know. It's just such a,

Alexis 18:09

it's such a new science. Yeah. You know what I mean? Of like a, a new model. So I, I didn't know if everyone was trying to figure it out and being like, okay, what does our ecosystem look like? Again, cuz it's a natural system or if there was just a general, a larger consensus. But that's lovely that there is a registry of kind of, These are our pathways and this is what we would kind of expect, to unlock a carbon credit within this, this system.

Jessica 18:34

There are some companies that do what's called insetting rather than offsetting. So like if a company decides to just decarbonize its supply chain, then they might do that with, with their own regulations and they'll, they'll try to be transparent about it to say, Hey, we're switching our truck fleet to an electric truck fleet. You know, like, so that's really. Demonstrable. Mm-hmm. But, but it's not like following a methodology, but in the offsetting world. You have to follow the external, the external methodologies very, very

Alexis 19:07

close. This is another, another new nuance. It's a complicated system, but it's, a very cool process and I think it's a really, really exciting market. And one thing that you mentioned within it was these new ecosystems and these new pathways that you're looking into. I know you mentioned agriculture and wetlands, and then there's also something called blue carbon, which my understanding is like coastal zones. Could you kinda explain, how these new pathways are looking like, what, what entails with them? And then you also did mention that. Part of your job is discovering and using these new M R V technology, which is monitoring, reporting, and verification. Mm-hmm. Could you kind of walk through what that technology looks like?

Jessica 19:46

Yeah, sure. The kind of novel ecosystems that are outside of forestry. Yeah. You have like terrestrial wetlands, which would be, like peat forests for example. And then you have agriculture, and then yes, you have coastal, the coastal zone, which would be like mangroves or seagrass meadows. And then you also have kind of other areas like the deep ocean, which is kind of a, like frontier area. Yeah, there's, there's things you can do there, but it's, it's a little, yeah, it's. Technologically different. But, one area where I've actually focused quite a bit is in the blue carbon space. So, I helped with our first, blue carbon project in the Shell Portfolio, which is a mangrove, restoration project in Senegal, in West Africa. And that's just like, it's such a cool project. Yeah. Thank you. The project went live in 2020 and, it's planting 7,000 hectares. It's gonna lead to, you know, close to 3 million tons of carbon dioxide sequestered over 30 years. And it provides, you know, employment opportunities for thousands of people in the region and improves their livelihoods as well. So it's such a cool project. Mm-hmm. But it was also the first time we worked in that ecosystem, from a nature-based solutions, business perspective. So you kind of have to deal with like, okay, well planting trees in ti in the intertidal zone where it's muddies, like that's different Yeah. Than planting trees on land. Right. And we work with partners to implement our project so it's not shell. People doing these things, we're, we're supporting others to do them. But yeah, it's just kind of like a different can of worms from an implementation perspective. And then there's the question of like the carbon accounting, and, and the measurement technology. So the M R V technology as you, as you mentioned, that that acronym is Yeah. A very commonly used acronym in this world. So, so basically what you wanna do is accurately measure the carbon in the ecosystem. So the stocks of carbon, and then also the fluxes. So what's moving in and out of the ecosystem. So one example of technology that my team is helping to develop, Are these, these things called Flex Towers, which sounds like super back to the future. You know, I just, I love Yes. Like yeah, exactly. And, and Flex Towers are actually not that new of a technology they've existed. They're, they essentially measure greenhouse gas movement in and out of a particular area, like three-dimensional area. They, this technology has existed for a while, but it used to be super, super expensive. And so we've helped develop, much lower cost towers so that you can deploy them kind of more regularly and get like really high, you know, high confidence, real time data about the CO2 that's moving in and out of your ecosystem. And even like, other greenhouse gases like methane or nitrous oxide. So we, yeah, we've, we've put these towers up in the Senegal project to basically say, okay, do they work as well in the coastal zone as they do on land? Because yeah, you have different environmental challenges in these zones. So yeah, we do a bunch of kind of like, Technology testing to say like, how do we, does this work? Yeah, yeah. Does this work here? Yeah. And if it doesn't, that's okay. We still are like, learning and, and, and, yeah. It's, it's kind of like failure's. Okay. In this space. We're just trying to, to develop and advance new technology.

Alexis 23:12

That is so freaking cool like that. It's so fun. Even if it's based on an old technology, like one, it sounds like something out to back to the future with a flex tower, but Totally, yeah. That that ability to look at realtime data and like variability and CO2 and an environment mm-hmm. Is so powerful. And the fact that if you could model it in different ecosystems and then use it as like a standard technology. Yeah. That's a fantastic record of co2. Like that's that's amazing.

Jessica 23:41

No, exactly. Exactly. And it really is like that real time aspect is so important because a lot of what we do now is just kind of like snapshots, where you take like mm-hmm. One data point every. Year, you know? Yeah. Which it's like if you sample in the morning versus at high noon, it's gonna be a different signal. So when you get that real time data, it's just such a more accurate picture of what's happening. And then if you consider like this whole network of Flex Towers being deployed across a bunch of ecosystems all around the world, it's like our understanding is just gonna like, Explode. You know? And Flex Towers are just one example. You know, there's many other examples like that where it's just like we're really opening the door to monitoring and understanding these ecosystems much better.

Alexis 24:27

That is so fantastic. Yeah, cuz you're right, like we go out for one season and there's so much variability in our data and there's so much potential for risk and for error. So if you can get a better baseline understanding and then you could also get like a, a different environment and also throughout the same environment, so throughout the same coastal region. It's just really, really powerful data. So that's really cool to see. One kind of question of this, when you talked about flux versus stock, stock is that baseline carbon is what you're looking at, and then flux is, carbon that's entering and exiting the

Jessica 24:59

system. Is that correct? Yeah, that's, that's exactly right. Yeah. And I mean, you can measure the stocks, so like your baseline stock will be what you have before the project starts. I mean, you can measure the stocks again after five years, and they may have cha and like. So, you know, it's what's in the system at time. Your baseline stock and then there's also your stock measurements later on in the, in the project, but it's just kind of like the in situ amount versus like what you said, what's moving in and out. So the flexes, the flexes are the movement.

Alexis 25:35

Very, very cool. That's wonderful technology. And it's also just really cool to see that type of technology and that type of project. One on a technology side, I must, you must be geeking out and just be really excited. But then a project do so much good and also bring like jobs. It stabilizes that ecosystem. We know that Mangrove Forest also has a huge. Pull of their own environment, that create their own ecosystem with fishing and with species that bring to it too. So it just creates species richness. It's just a beautiful thing. That's really freaking cool. I love that.

Jessica 26:09

I think in general, that's one of the most exciting parts about nature-based solutions is that. These projects have such, you know, they're so important for climate change mitigation, but they have so many other co-benefits, which are equally as important. Mm-hmm. So improved biodiversity, improved livelihoods for the communities where the projects are implemented. Like all of those things are just such great. Components to a project and like, not hating on direct air capture by any means, but like that's this solution where you just have fans sucking CO2 outta the atmosphere. That's great. You know, we need that as well, but you don't have you know, there's not like biodiversity gains from that. So, you know, that's where I think nature-based solutions has a really nice extra layer of, of, of value.

Alexis 26:58

I agree as well because it's not a holistic, and it's a also a non-natural, right? Like fans don't exist in nature of sucking out co2, so they don't have the same benefits of a natural system. Right. Natural systems come with a lot of, consequence positive, yeah. Like cyclic returns. So that's just amazing. Absolutely. Yeah. And yeah. Yeah, I think we might have. Already talked a little bit about this, so feel free to skip it if we already have. But how does Sedimentology and geology really play within the energy transition and how, why a climate scientist in this role? Like what, what does geology have a tie to, carbon credits?

Jessica 27:40

So that's a great question. And, and yeah, I don't think we've, we haven't gone like, As, you know, as deep as like in, in, I mean, deep in kind of a, a couple of different ways, but like, so the cool thing about nature-based solutions and and really a lot of the kind of like energy transition problems are very like surface related. So it's processes happening in the biosphere or in the soil, which is like, you know, very much just like the top meter or two, top of top layer of, yeah. And. As a geologist, you're, you know, especially, I mean, you know, this like a, a geologist that works on, on drill ships. It's like you're going kilometers into, into the sediment. So that's, it's, it's a very different, different lens, you know, to look at the earth. With, but what I think is really cool, and I'm, I'm not gonna claim this as an original thought. I heard this from, at, at South by Southwest actually. This, somebody speaking, like the problem with, with climate change right now is that we've taken a bunch of carbon from the slow cycle, so the geologic cycle. Mm-hmm. And we've put it into the fast cycle. So we've pumped up fossil fuels. That are Yeah. Have it took them millions of years to accumulate where they are. Yeah. And we combust them. We've combusted insane amounts of them like that, you know, in a geologic instant. Mm-hmm. And so now we have to reverse that and put a lot, a lot, a lot of carbon back into the slow cycle. And so that's, to me, the cool, kind of like geologic lens of the energy transition mm-hmm. Is it's like, okay, what are the most. Cost effective and fast and equitable ways that we can move carbon back into the slow cycle. And, you know, that can be pumping carbon into the deep ocean or it could be, you know, pumping carbon back into geologic reservoirs. There's a lot of different ways that we can think about it, but, that's, I think a cool, a cool analogy or not analogy. Yes, but framework to think about what, what we're dealing with right now.

Alexis 29:44

I think you just blew my mind. Like I absolutely love the way of thinking it. I've never thought I know, right. Climate change like that

Jessica 29:50

ever. No, it's, it's really cool. And like I said, I won't take credit for it, but I heard that and I was like, I'm gonna use that forever going forward, because it's such a great, yeah. It's a great way to explain it, you know? Yeah.

Alexis 30:01

I'm gonna use that forever going forward too, like yeah. Good, good. It like tickles that part of your brain in geology that you're like, oh, I just love talking about geologic time. So you're like, excellent. I know. Like it justly makes sense that you're like, you have to go back into slow time. That's a good way to think of, as well as like why a geologist and sedimentologist within the energy transition. Because I think when you originally think of it, you think of it as like process based in engineering, almost as an engineering puzzle. But I like the idea of a holistic, natural perspective of putting it back into a natural system and because of that you need a natural scientist. So that's yeah, a, a very different way and a very cool way to think of it. As we're talking, cuz the energy transition, obviously people are so excited about it, right? Like people obviously really, really wanna understand it. They wanna learn more about it, but because it's so new and maybe they're not used to it or they don't have that background in it, What do you believe is a common misconception that people don't really understand about the energy transition? And is there anything that the public that we should be more aware of as we transition into green technology?

Jessica 31:12

Yeah, I was thinking about this a lot. Like, I'd say, I'm not sure if I'd call it a misconception per se, but more like something that maybe we don't. Recognize enough is that the energy transition is going to require like it, it is going to be such an expensive and capitally intensive thing that is like, that part of it makes me nervous, I guess, because it's like, if you think about changing our entire grid infrastructure globally to be, you know, like based on renewables, that's the decommissioning of. I don't know how many power plants exist, you know? But like probably tens of thousands of power plants. Thousands. Like hundreds, yeah. Yeah. And then building that much capacity in new power plants, and it's like, You know, those things require physical infrastructure and you know, I think about this mm-hmm. A lot. You know, like, I think one of the, one of the cool things about being in the nature-based solution space is that there really is no, there's very little physical infrastructure, you know, in involved with it. But then when I hear about other projects, so like, okay, we need this many, Carbon capture and sequestration, plants, you know, globally, we, we have, I don't know how many, a couple dozen and we need tens of thousands, you know, to meet any, any semblance of the Paris agreement. And it's like, okay, that's, that's just, it's a huge amount of infrastructure and, and physical footprint. And, yeah, so I think. To me, one of the biggest opportunity spaces in the energy transition is like, how can we leverage. Well, we already have existing and to, to basically support us through that transition as opposed to saying like, well, we need to just cut that one down and build a brand new one. Yeah, yeah. Because it's just like, yeah, well, the, the carbon footprint and the non-carbon, I mean the environmental footprint of the energy transition, if we basically just say, oh, we just have to kind of start from scratch like that, that just makes it impossible to meet any goals. And I think, you know, I think about that too, like. Working for a major oil and gas company, like a lot of people don't want Shell to be at the table in, in conversations around the energy transition. But you know, my counter-argument is like, okay, but if you can get Shell to upgrade their assets to process biofuels instead of. Fossil fuels like they should be at the table. Yeah. Yeah. That makes more sense than having a startup. Mm-hmm. Try to build a new, a new refinery, you know? So yeah. That's kind of like a very specific thing. But that was the kind of first thing that came to my mind when I heard that question was like, I don't think like a, we think a lot about just like snapping our fingers and being like, well, we just have to leave oil in the ground. Mm-hmm. And then everything will be better. But it's like, no. The transition to make sure that we don't put people into. Back into energy poverty and that we keep bringing people out of energy poverty. Like those are really, really critical factors that require us to continue to Yeah, provide those basic needs. With, yeah, with minimizing the kind of, capital and infrastructure footprint, those are important components to consider. Yeah. That's necessary.

Alexis 34:35

I think that's a perfect answer. Jessica, I, I really do, and I think like you brought up two really good points. Well, we brought up multiple good points, but the two ones that stood out or the idea of our big oil and gas company, should they be at the table? And I think that's something that has been debated within like the public, Public base within news, within also the scientific community as well. Mm-hmm. But how I've always seen it is that they have such an impact on climate that they have to be at the table because we have to basically get them on board. Yeah. If we don't get them on board or if they don't re. Either lead this thing or, comply with what is decided. Or if it's not realistic that it can't actually be put into place. We're not gonna win. Like they have such a huge impact because of their industry that they need to come on board. And I believe that they have to be kind of at the forefront of it because, They have the biggest impact to do. They're one of the most, the largest players. So I think that's always important is to have them at the table. But it does make sense that there is this kind of debate in the public sphere of do they deserve to be there? Cause of the damage that's happened with natural gas. And then the second one is this idea of infrastructure and capital that's nece necessary to transition us because I think it also brings up a point of. We say this is like a Western nation, which is already extremely rich, extremely privileged, and has the ability to transition to energy. But what about a different country? Can we hold them to the same standard if they do not have the same technology or same infrastructure already into play? Is that appropriate to bring them fully and to say, you know what, scrap that. Completely ignore that and now do something else where they don't have the funds or the technology, or, Any of the personnel to put that into play. So I think that that's a good point to bring up that it can't just be a snap your fingers and we've changed It needs to be Yeah. A stepwise process.

Jessica 36:37

Yeah, absolutely. And, and like, yeah, even, even with these kind of big, like if you consider like developing countries and building brand new energy infrastructure there, it's just like, These are things that have like decatal timeframes to, to do these things safely. And so it's kind of like, I mean like obviously anybody who works in this space knows, like you can't stress the urgency enough, but it's like steps that we take today in many parts of the energy transition will not have the full benefits felt for 10 to 15 years, which means like we should have taken those steps. Wow. 10 to 15 years ago. You know? So it's just, it's a slow, slow how slow. So let's get moving, I guess, is the, Answer.

Alexis 37:24

It's a little bit sad, but like, yeah, let's get moving. I think right now at least what's good about it is that everyone's thinking about the energy transition and there's a lot of push towards it in the public space, but also within the community. So that's, that's a plus. But yes, it is slow and it is gonna be go a step-wise thing. Thank you again for the, all those lovely answers. And thank you very much for walking us through the energy transition. I think you did a wonderful job. And switching gears kind of com something completely different is just since the last time I saw you, which is back, I think in like 2017. 2016. Yeah. Which is crazy that it's been that long. But, since that time, Yeah, you've become a mom, and I just wanted to say congratulations. That's absolutely amazing. It's, it's just a fantastic thing and apologies if this is maybe a first question that's a little bit heavy or like a little bit of like a negative tone, but I think it's an important question to ask just because of our industry and it's just in a, being in an industry such as geology, it's so heavily, heavily field-based that in my opinion, the conversation has always. Stereotypically revolved around motherhood and geology as being an exclusive thing that you can be a geologist or a mom. You can't do both, just because of our field work. And I was wondering if you could speak to this stereotype, because I mean, you're proof that this industry and motherhood are inclusive and you are both a geologist active within the field and also a mom. So I was just wondering if you could give your opinion on that.

Jessica 38:55

No, I mean, it, it's definitely like, I think things have changed so much, just, I mean like year on year, like things are getting better and more inclusive and like we see, you know, support increasing for like, you know, having, I actually, there's a great example of, One of our research collaborators, is a new mom, and she brought her, her baby. She, she's based in the uk and she brought her baby to Brazil to do field work with her. And it's just like amazing. They supported that, you know, and it's like, that's so cool. Like, also you're such a badass for doing that, you know, like, oh, I don't think I could do that. But, but yeah, I mean, I think those conversations can be had now or they couldn't before. And I mean also my, my sister-in-law, my, Husband's, sister is a geology professor, and, and she also, and a new mom. And also same thing, like she's a, a field-based, professor and like, is finding ways to, to manage like, okay, how can I do my field work? Can my husband and baby come along with me? Like, can I do more localized field work? You know, like there's definitely hurdles that like mm-hmm. We're never gonna not have to face, like, if you're. If you choose to breastfeed, for example, like you can't be away from your baby for however long you choose to do that. So there's, there's kind of like, as progressive as the world becomes, there's, there's always gonna be challenges as a mother who has like field-based components. Luckily, I mean, since, I mean lucky or luckily, or luckily, but since I became a, a mom, like I, I haven't really had field work. Which has reduced that pressure. Like I've had some short work trips, but not like You know, multi-week field campaigns. But I do think, yeah, I mean it's been exciting to see kind of positive examples of like, women who are making it work and, and in general kind of more, supportive environments both on the academic side and on the private side, that are kind of saying like, yep, like motherhood should not be a career limiting, factor. It should be, you know, that should absolutely just be part of. A person's professional career. And actually one thing that I think is helping a lot is that, benefits for fathers are, or non birthing partners, is going up as well. So like, it used to be there was a big gap. You know, if we take a heteronormative couple, you know, the mother would get maternity leave and dads would go back to work after like, You know, a couple of days. And so then you right away you always, yeah. Yeah. And so then you'd have this gap because by definition, a working mother would, would have a certain pause in her career every time she has a child. But now that non birthing parents are getting more leave as well, that like mm-hmm. Now it's kind of just a little bit more equalized that people who choose to be parents, You know, there's not as much of a gender bias. Which I think is kind of like, it's great from a family perspective cuz now multiple, you know, both parents get to be with the baby, but it's also great from like equalizing the, the disruption at work, you know? So yeah. I think that's an interesting Yes. Yeah, exactly.

Alexis 42:04

So getting better. Yeah. I think that you. Yeah. No, I love it. I, I think that's a wonderful answer and I'm actually really happy it was that answer because I think it was that stereotype for so long, and I think that was kind of a common thing with field work. And I love the fact that in both academia and within the private sector, that field work and motherhood. Now is being accommodated for like that story. I don't know if I would have a newborn in a Brazil field camp, but I love that she did. You know what I mean? Yeah. I love that she brought her husband and her, her partner and her baby, and she, she got to work like, that's absolutely amazing. And and what a badass. So that's just so cool that that is now part of kind of culture that's, that's wonderful to see.

Jessica 42:49

Yeah, definitely.

Alexis 42:50

Yeah. I love it. Very cool. And how has been navigating kind of this duality of science and being a bu I know you said that your, your work, luckily or unluckily hasn't been field-based yet at the moment or heavily field-based. How has it been kind of still navigating that duality?

Jessica 43:09

Yeah, I mean, I think it's more, Kind of like less focused on like the fact that I'm a scientist and more just focused on general work-life balance considerations. And so, you know, it's, it's de it like one of the silver linings for me, Having a baby, like toward the end of, of Covid, we're really kind of in the middle of it. It was in 2021. But I got to spend, I've, I've still get to work at home, you know, more than half the time. And so I get to like, I. Basically the second I turn off my computer, I'm like, present with my child, which is awesome, you know, and amazing. So I think it's, and and I really like basically have said like, that's my commitment. Like, I wanna sign off at the end of the day. And you know, like it, it's kind of crazy that like you really only see your kid for like, Two to three hours cuz like, you know, babies go to bed really early. So it's like, okay, I need to like really maximize that time with him. So I think it's just been kind of like really learning how to. Compartmentalize and be like, work me is work me. And then like, when I'm home and with family, I just like really wanna make it maximum quality time. And not take for granted those, those windows that I have with him, you know, and, and my husband. So that's been kind of definitely a change cuz like, I used to be like, you know, would, would get excited about a project and work in Eve, you know, work evenings more and it's like, I don't really do that anymore. I can't relate anymore

Alexis 44:39

nor should you like, I think that's so much more beautiful spending time with your, your husband. Yeah. I'm also guilty of doing the same thing of getting excited and that's all that I'll be working on afterwards, but I love that idea of work-life balance and the fact that you can just shut your computer work at home and then instantly be with your son and family. Yeah. Like that's, that's pretty wonderful.

Jessica 44:59

And it's a privilege. Like, I know not everybody gets that, but yeah, I'm, I feel lucky that I do.

Alexis 45:05

No, that's really, really cool. And that's, that's wonderful that you do have that. And I know that this was, I asked that like the idea of the duality of science and. And motherhood. And I know you're like, nah, it's just like work-life balance. But if we could go into science, cuz you are a climate change scientist and a climate scientist. And one question would be is has being a mom changed your view on climate change and like, what's necessary for the energy transition and has it changed your perspective in any way? Cuz my understanding or my instant reaction would be probably yes. That it, it would've impacted it.

Jessica 45:41

Yeah. No, definitely. I mean, I think, Like obviously like one of the most, like terrifying parts about climate change, I guess is thinking about the legacy that we leave for future generations. And it's like you know, I got to go diving off of the Great Barrier Reef and it's like, wow. Like my children that like might not be a thing. But like also sad that my children might not get to even have that option, to have that experience, you know? Yeah. And it's like, it's a very abstract thing when you're just thinking about, you know, future generations as a, as a like monolithic group. But when it's like, now thinking about like my child, it's like, whoa, this is like really, really scary and different now and like, Thinking about the way that like, there may be conflict, like global conflict around climate change related issues like climate refugees and water wars, and kind of like all these, you know, not to get too deep and scary, but it's like, it becomes, it just hits a little closer to home, you know? And it's like, wow. A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, am I asking my child to like live a life where like, These things are gonna be like really front and center, his experience. And so it Gives me, I think, even more kind of motivation to try to like, make the biggest possible impact in, in climate change mitigation, you know, for, for him and, and any future, future kids, you know.

Alexis 47:11

Yeah, completely. I think it would because it makes sense, like I think how you described it as like a monolithic, all of a sudden it has a name and it's like that name is your son, so you're like, oh my goodness. I have to make sure that he, he can go to the Great Barrier Reef and see these really cool fish and have this amazing experience and make sure that his life. Doesn't sound apocalyptic of like all Yeah. I don't wanna get too scary, but it's true. Like, you, you start going there, right. Of being like, what's gonna happen? Yeah. If, if we don't get this under control. So I, I could see it just being every day of working to be like, okay, this is what I'm working for and I'm working for him, and. I just think it was an interesting perspective cuz I was like, not every day is like your mom, a climate scientist. And I think it would be front of mind We're just almost, almost at time, so I just don't wanna take up too much time of your day cuz you've already been so generous and so wonderful. But my last question to you was, for young women potentially listening and wanting to enter a climate based science or trade, what would be your advice for them just starting out?

Jessica 48:13

Yeah, I mean, I think, like. My own philosophy, which has worked for me. And so, you know, like, take, take advice with the grain of salt because everybody's speaking from a personal lens. But one thing that I've kind of always, done is kind of just say yes to. Pretty much every opportunity, even if it's not exactly in line with where I wanted to go. So like a great example was, sailing with you on an I O D P cruise. Like that was, I real had always wanted to sail as a, as a research scientist. And it was like thematically very much not related to my research at all that I was like, I really want this opportunity, so I'm gonna take it. And I, and like. I had so much personal growth out of that, I learned so much out of that. And even switching into the role that I'm in now, like when I thought about working in the energy transition again as a geologist, I was like, oh, carbon capture and sequestration or geothermal, like, those are the areas where my skillset mm-hmm. Would make sense for me to go to. But a job opening, came up in this area that I didn't know much about. And now it's like, you know, my, my life and my passion. So I think like, yeah. My, my general advice, which is really kind of just life advice is, is to just like, say yes to opportunities like when they come up. Even if it kind of feels a little bit out of scope, I tend to kind of always say like, everything is a learning opportunity. And yeah, you never know, like how it's gonna shape you and, and also exposure to things that you may not think you like, end up being, you know, being your passion. So, yeah, and I think, I mean specifically your own climate. I guess the last piece would just be like, yeah, trying to find ways to, to maximize your impact. And I know that's kind of, you know, that's tough advice to give because it's like, it's also great to be really passionate about like, You know, silk dental floss, like, I think that's cool too. Yes. But like, yeah. But like, think about like how gargantuan the problem is. Mm-hmm. And how, like what's the way to really make them the, the biggest possible impact Doesn't mean that the small things aren't important, but, but, the big things are where we should spend a lot of our time. Totally. Cause it's a big, big thing to tackle.

Alexis 50:36

Yeah, and it's a big system and it's all interconnected and try to go for the big or else I feel like you'll just burn out if you try to tackle too many small things. Cause it's just hard to manage. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. No, that's fantastic advice, Jessica, and thank you very much. I love the idea of just say yes and just kind of go with it and everything's a learning opportunity. I think that's an amazing mindset and amazing like framework to work off of. Cuz then every opportunity you take is gonna be a positive one cuz you learned something from it. So it's just wonderful advice. Wonderful, wonderful advice for life and also for this career. And I just wanted to say thank you so much. This has been a wonderful conversation. I know I learned a lot, I learned lot, a lot about, carbon credits that I did not know. I did not know about coastal. Blue carbon mm-hmm. Or any of that, those new pathways. And this Senegal project was so interesting to learn more. So just thank you very much for coming on. I really appreciate it. This is Ja, Dr. Jessica in Nosha with, climate change and understanding kind of climate science and carbon capture. So thank you so much. It was wonderful having you on. This is MoCo. Thank you. Thank you. See you next week. Bye-Bye.