Alexis: 0:00

Hello. Hello everybody and welcome to this MoCo podcast. My name is Alexis Armstrong, your host. Nice to meet you. The MoCo Podcast is a place to celebrate and highlight women working within STEM and trade occupations. So please join us, tune in, take a break. We're on MoCo, and today we're extremely lucky to be joined by the lovely Emma Bellamy, who is a forester in training. She is working up in Prince George as a supervisor for timber development. She is working within the planning, the landscape planning and management side. So we're looking at the harvesting side of forestry. So her job is to plan cut blocks and road layouts, and we're gonna talk all thing forestry cuz she's kind of worked on every single lifestyle. Cycle of forestry. She's had a job in it. So we're gonna talk all things forestry. She has a bachelor of science from the University of Northern British Columbia. She did a major in forest ecology with a minor in environmental science. So we're gonna talk a little bit about that in its aspect into forestry. We're gonna talk about her experience within the fields cause it's heavily field based and she goes out into the woods for weeks at a time, so, mm-hmm. It's super cool and we're gonna dive into her field work and we're just really gonna talk about all things forestry and her experience so far within the industry. So thank you so much for coming out today. It is an honor to have you on the show. Thank you so

Emma: 1:17

much, honor to be

Alexis: 1:18

here. You're welcome. It's so cool. Like, it's so nice to have you on the show because I don't think you meet many people in forestry. I definitely don't. I don't know many people that work in forestry, so I always love chatting with you because I get to learn something new and I think it's an industry where I think that I know a lot about, but I absolutely, when it turns out to know nothing about the industry, that's fair. So, so I'm really excited to, honestly, to learn more about it. And, and maybe that's where we start. Maybe we start. Mm-hmm. At that point of, I know that you grew up in Vancouver, you grew up in the north shore of Vancouver, and I know that forestry for you probably was something that you didn't really know that much about. Could you kind of like, walk us through how you stumbled into it? How did you discover forestry and then what was it about forestry and about this industry that you were like, you know what, that's what I'm gonna do. I'm obsessed with it.

Emma: 2:14

Yeah, I, yeah, growing from Vancouver, like I only saw the logging trucks and mm-hmm. Saw them going to the mill and I, you know, you think nothing of it. You think, they just kind of appear there somehow? Like, that's what I thought and I, I think, yeah, like you said, a lot of people think that way too. I honestly just moved up to Prince George to go to school cause I just wanted to leave Vancouver and see what was up. Cause I did not know what I wanted to do. I tried out business, I tried out other sciences, didn't like quite work out at the time. I did a year at uvc, took a year off and then I was like, what do I do? I don't really know. Yeah. So then I moved up to Prince George and then just went to U N B C. Just like going, just went to the school. Just to school. Mm-hmm. Just to go. Just to go. Yeah. And then I honestly went into business to, to start. Cuz I was scared of chemistry cause that's a requirement for the degree, but, I was talking to a friend at a party at, and he is just like, I amm in forestry. And I'm like, what is that for forestry? Yeah, exactly. I was like, forestry, you can study forests like that sounds cool. I've never heard of this. I've heard of biology, geology. Yeah. Chem, like all the basic sciences. And so I looked up the program and it was like all about plants and soils and weather and you learn all the aspects of, of everything. Yeah. And, and so I was like, okay, I'm gonna go into this. And I mean, chemistry was involved, but I was like, okay, we're just gonna have to suck it up cause this seems really cool. So then I started taking the courses based on interest. And then the cool thing about forestry is once you're even just a step in the door, or not even in school, you can you can get a summer job. It's just, it's just a labor job when you're starting. So yeah, you can easily get your foot in the door into forestry so you can get summer jobs. Right. Like that. So my first summer was in forestry as a summer student, and then I just went from there. Snowballed. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that was like 2014 when that first started. Wow. That's insane. And yeah, it was really just the studying of the nature. And I think eventually I found out you could work outside with this job. It kind of made sense. Mm-hmm. And so I was like, that's it, that's what I want. I was like, I can't do a desk job. I don't, I don't see myself doing that, so what can I do? And I mean, growing up in the city, you only think you have desk jobs, but I mean, that's not true. Very narrows so much more. Yeah. So moving up north and being in the industries like, well, all around the industries, not even just forestry. I was like, oh, ok. I see. It kinda opened my eyes, but it, it's, it's really cool though to see this whole other side of the province really. Very cool. That's cool. City.

Alexis: 4:41

Yeah. Completely. To move out of like a city zone. And I, I mean, I think when I see those logging trucks, I go instantly final destination and I kind of stay there for a long time. Like, that's, that's it. Like, that's like the first thing that I think of. I'm like trying to like frantically pass them and just being like, oh my God. Oh my God, actually, yeah.

Emma: 5:01

But like after I afters kind of

Alexis: 5:04

gone away. It must be right when it's like your every single day experience. I like sort of hope that it's gone down.

Emma: 5:12

Honestly, when they're, cuz we're on the like bus roads and you pass them. Yeah. And they're just, they don't really slow down. Like you pull over for them. No. And they're just barreling and you're like, sweet. And it's like all this dust behind, it's like a train come, like they're passing you, but they're coming at you and so you, this is like a trust. But no, it's pretty cool to see. But yeah, that definitely always crosses my mind.

Alexis: 5:32

Oh yeah. I couldn't imagine it, but like, it's, it's really cool to see. I couldn't imagine seeing that and being on like a, a dirt road like that and being so far out in the bush. But I, I love that you fell in love with it from the nature aspect, because I don't think people think about forestry as nature and as ecology and as understanding like botany and forest ecology, you don't think about that when you instantly think of forestry. You think of, no heavy industry and clear cuts. You don't think of like kind of landscape management and the science that goes into it. So that's really cool that that's why you fell into it. Yeah.

Emma: 6:10

Yeah. That, I know. I had no idea you could go to school, get a degree, and then that'd be your career as a, a forester. Like Yeah, just that was not even something that ever crossed my path growing up in the city and having no one in my family. In the industry or anything, everyone's mm-hmm. Business like my, yeah. Pretty much just all business or no school doing their own thing. Just, yeah, whatever. But it's, so, it's definitely cool to find, but it, I wouldn't have, I don't, it would've been way harder to find if I didn't move up north, but yes, I could

Alexis: 6:41

see that. Yeah. To be like, I'm immersed

Emma: 6:43

in it. Yeah, that definitely helped. And then hearing my friend who's from Alberta and was like, I'm in forestry. I'm just like, this is a whole new what? So yeah, it was, it's pretty cool. But I was like, this is it. Cause I was like, the city wasn't quite right for a job and a career. So yeah, being able to work out the woods definitely is

Alexis: 7:04

cool. Of perk. I had something similar like it, it kind of reminds me a little bit of mining because I was the same way that growing up in a city and being like, there's something about it that I was like, this is just not me. Like, and then I found the ability to go outside and they were like, oh, you get paid to walk around and just pick up dirt. Like, yeah. Yeah. I'm like a hundred percent in. But I think you brought up a good point about being like, you can instantly get a job. So before you even realize it, you're like, well, I guess I'm, I'm, I'm in mining. I guess I'm a geologist now. I'm 19, but I guess this is what I do. Yeah.

Emma: 7:38

Yeah. You don't think about these industries as being something you can just get into at an entry level. Mm-hmm. Cause really, like, yeah, it's just, it is just labor for the first bit until you become a, a four store, like higher level. But to get into it, you, you just have to have a drive to walk through the woods and like they're willing to learn and yeah, that's pretty much it, honestly. Yeah. From what I've noticed, Steven. Yeah. It's just like, you want to do this good. Yeah. Cause morale is, the whole basis of the job is team morale com camaraderie. Yeah. And being out there cuz it's not fun always. Yes, we post all the fun parts, you know, on social media, but like, then it's like, no, I'm not filming myself crying up the hill and I'm not filming myself screaming or getting mad at this task I'm trying to do, but like, that's all part of it. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, it's definitely a fun challenge, but I like hands on, hands-on is the, the

Alexis: 8:36

ultimate, the way to go. I, I, I think that they're so, they're so similar in industries because you're right. Like, I think for the first part it is just like grunt work. Like, and it, again, not even grunt work, but just positivity to be like, could you go outside and be. Sitting in like zero degree weather. You have bug bites of places. You should not have bug bites. And you're carrying like a hundred pounds of rocks or soil on your back. Could you still be okay? Like, could you still be happy and like, that's all you really need. You're right. Is like team morale. That's really,

Emma: 9:09

yeah. Yeah. You have still be happy even on the worst days. Not, not you don't be happy, but don't bring the team down. Just, just be fine. Just deal with it. Don't be a problem maker. Mm-hmm. You can make, be aware of the problems or make someone aware of it, but then solve it. Not don't just complain. That's like the biggest thing out there. I mean with any job, any, any team job, that's a big thing. But yeah. When you're out in kind of survival mode and you have your crew, it's like, we gotta work as a team. Oh. And like safety, you know it, and then get in production and then making sure you can walk in the woods and, yeah. It's so dynamic, but it's so cool. I think so it's really just a willing.

Alexis: 9:48

I'm so excited to talk more cuz we are gonna talk eventually we're gonna get to field work and I, I can't wait to talk more about like that dynamic aspect of it, but to maybe like go back just mm-hmm. If people aren't in forestry, if they don't really don't really know the industry you've worked in kind of like every aspect of it. Like you've worked a little bit in each Yeah. Like you really have, like you've worked as a tree planter in reforestation and then you did post harvest assessment and then right now you're on the planning side, so this is like pre-harvest. Mm-hmm. And so I was managing cut block and road layouts. Could you kind of walk us through the life cycle of forestry because maybe that's something, something that I didn't understand and like what are the different stages involved and then mm-hmm. Why do you like this part? What's it about pre-harvest that you're like, yeah, this is my specialty. Yeah.

Emma: 10:36

So it start like we go into an untouched just forest, like something you see when you're hiking on a trail, but it's all the stuff off the trail that you're, okay. Yeah. Anything that you look off into the forest, that's where we are. Whoa. I mean we, so we have maps to tell us kind of generally what the landscape looks like based on contours, elevation and such. Mm-hmm. But that's pretty much it. And if that's not much

Alexis: 11:00

information. No. And

Emma: 11:02

if the computers could do our job, we wouldn't be out there to, we call it ground through thing. So we have to go and see what actually is on the ground. So we go to a new forest. Yeah. Lay it out. We, decide where the boundary's gonna go, which is usually where the best trees are. And then also machine probability. So, It can only be certain slopes and there can't be goings and there can't be rocks and there can't be. That's pretty much the basics. And then if there's no trees, we'll we're not gonna harvest that. So cut these orange. Yeah. Use tie ribbons on the trees to mark out this area and then we GPS it. So once we've established the operable and like valuable area, then we put roads in there as well. Then that, once that gets all harvested, then those, those are when like your typical loggers come in for the actual harvesting. Okay. With the machines in the block, to the logging trucks to the mill. Then once they're done, whoever was in charge of that land, like the licensee, cuz it's all crown land, it's all government land, it's all public land. But, licensees get the rights to the wood, but then they have return that land back to its original state. Oh, lived in.

Alexis: 12:08

So this is, so before harvesting? Yes. This is reforestation. This is when tree planting and like management comes into play. Okay. Yes.

Emma: 12:16

So like after harvest management. So then, the post harvest assessment would be in between the planting or the harvest and the planting. So then we'd come in with the post harvest and be like, okay, are the roads built in the right spot? Did they rut up the ground? Did they follow the boundary? Did they do everything that was said to do in the site plan? And the site plan is what the forester signs off on. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Ok. So did they, did they comply? And if they didn't, they have fines. They have to pay. They have to. Mm-hmm. You know it, they can't just go back. Yeah. They can't just take the trees and be like, meh. Like that's not how it works. It's the forest stewardship. We have to maintain our land. Yeah. Even by, with taking the resource. So we post-service assessment, all that. And then the tree planting comes in, plant all the trees. But then after the trees are planted, we have to do silver culture, which is basically. Coming in, doing plots and making sure the trees are growing healthy healthily. Healthy enough. Yes. And then, I mean, if they're not all dying, like you wanna make sure the forest is actually growing up to like what you want it to be. And then once you've assessed that, you know, through, I haven't really done that side too much more in school, but you know, there's calculations, math, basically they assess if the stand is going to grow on its own now or not based on the competition. Oh, okay. From like alder fire weed, like all the other sh rubbing things, they're gonna other

Alexis: 13:34

seasons and like ecologies of it Yes. Perform because

Emma: 13:37

like the baby trees and then everything else grows so fast. Whereas the trees like conifers take so long. Like this could be a five year old tree, like Oh wow, this tiny little under a meter tall. Yeah. So it's like the other competition really takes over. So we have to go in and mitigate that. Like management of the weeds. Again, I haven't done it, but I know they go in and do like some spraying or some sort of mechanical management so that the trees can grow. And then once they've deemed them good to grow, it's called free to grow, stand, the permit's free to grow. And then that is essentially a forest that is back to its

Alexis: 14:14

natural, a natural system that you, it doesn't need hands on management to make sure that it's actually gonna grow properly. Very cool. Yeah, exactly.

Emma: 14:24

Whoa. Yeah, and then that's pretty much it. So right now, like we, we started planting, I could have my numbers wrong, but I see posted signs from planted in 79, 76. Mm-hmm. Wow. So to me that's the earliest I've seen is in the seventies. But we're like, I think just starting to get back to those blocks now. Oh my

Alexis: 14:43

goodness. Now, yeah. Such a long recharge.

Emma: 14:46

So it's renewable. Yeah. Yes. But

Alexis: 14:50

very, very long. Yeah. It's renewable, but it's on a natural system. It's not on a human system. It's not on a human scale. No. We

Emma: 14:57

scale, we make a crop. Yeah. We make a crop, we let it grow. But you know, natural things always, we try our best. Right. Yeah. It's with

Alexis: 15:05

management takes longer than, and then kind of our time here. Yeah. It's

Emma: 15:10

longer than a human life, really. Yeah. Completely. So and, and then you would go back in essentially and log that and that would be a complete cycle. But we're, we're just starting to get the full cycle now. Right now, like everything we're harvesting is just fresh. Okay. Fresh. Like fresh, not planted. Yes.

Alexis: 15:30

Kind of wild. It's wild. Forest block is currently what's being forested or being harvested Yes. At the moment. And then the ones that are harvested back in the seventies are just becoming potentially viable. Yeah. Mature

Emma: 15:42

enough because it takes, well, we consider a mature tree up north, 120 years old. Wow. Wow. Over, but between 80 and one 20, they can still harvest it if it's the right diameter. Okay. So, but it, so it can be technically 80 or up and that's good. Mm-hmm. But that just depends how good the growing conditions were. Like are the trees this big or really dense and small? Like it can vary, based on Yeah. Where they're growing, if it's, you know, suppressed or too dense or near water when it shouldn't be. Or Cause we plant trees and that's not necessarily where it was gonna grow naturally. So

Alexis: 16:19

just Oh, that's interesting to think. But yes, it's true because potentially like a natural system, it is gonna change it depending on light, depending on soil quality water. That's really interesting to know that like Yeah. Sometimes when you plant a tree Yeah. It's gonna be small and spiny. Yeah. Cause it maybe wasn't supposed to be within that environment.

Emma: 16:39

Yeah. Cause it's very like production based, the planting. And so it, You know, there's all the things that come along with that. So you just kind of go, go, go and get them in the ground, like they're spacing and everything. And they do say plant, you know, certain species in certain areas because of their ecology. Like for example, spruce like more wet and find like more dry. So they would the planters, would the foresters tell the planters to be like, plant your spruce higher, fine, lower, like on a microsite where the land maybe just does this? Oh yes. In a meter, yeah. You would choose the higher site for your and something like that. So that's the idea. That's the management behind. And it works I think most of the time. I don't know all the statistics of planting, but I know it's meant cuz you plant the trees about a meter or two apart. But when those are mature trees, they, it's self thins. Mm-hmm. It's self like self thinning where Yeah, some, some stems will die and then some keep going. So for that, like it is good cuz it's more of a chance that trees will, yes, the good trees will survive. So we. It's over planted

Alexis: 17:40

in that way because it is gonna be like a natural system that some will die. There will be some variability. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. There's gonna be some chance to it. Well, it's just, it's really cool to thank you so much for describing the lifecycle because it's so interesting. Of course. And there's like so much that fricking goes into it and such a complicated system. One question that I had is from early on, when you do your first like initial site survey, which if you've done any type of mapping, you know how hard that is. Like I couldn't imagine how much work goes into being like, where is your water? Where is your rock? What, what are you looking for? Are you looking at species specific? When you say like high quality trees, are you looking at diameter? What quantifies that? Or does it change per product

Emma: 18:22

project? It well, so yeah, it can change per, like licensee that we work for. Like the specs, but generally no. So the diameters, there's a set standard for like DC state, like, so 12 and a half. We go in centimeters, we work all in metric. And then as soon it gets to the mill, it goes to feed. So I dunno how that works. We work all meters very odd. So we work in centimeters, meters, everything. So, the diameter is minimum, can only be 12 and a half. So that's a boat.

Alexis: 18:48

Very like a dinner kinda. Yeah,

Emma: 18:50

a little smaller, but like a salad plate I would say is your smallest for a pine tree. Cause they'll, wow. That was for like the salvage, they wanted to get it all like anything small, but for any other tree, like a spruce or a fur, you wanted to be 17. So that would be more your classic like dinner plate. Kinda like Okay. Sort of big, not big. If you live on the coast, like I came from the coast too and it's everything up here. Nothing is as

Alexis: 19:13

big. No, these are huge. That's what I was wondering. I was like, they're people sized. Yeah, right. Oh yeah,

Emma: 19:19

yeah. The trees up here, it's more. They're, they're good size, but it's, it's nothing like the coastal trees and not as much old growth or anything. Yeah. So yeah, we're looking at the diameter, we look at the heights, cause the diameter and the heights and everything gives you the volume. And we quantify our, the stands in meters cube. So like volume of

Alexis: 19:42

timber, volume of material. You're gonna get very complicated. Okay. That adds another layer of dimension to it, of when those are trying math, like

Emma: 19:50

simple, simple math and stuff. So it's like based on, we don't do like this tree and this, like, we don't pick tree per tree because No, you crazy. Yeah. Forever. Yeah. Yeah. So we, we go in, initially we do a reconnaissance, like a, a walkthrough, a look to see are we even gonna waste our time in this block or send our time laying out this block for money when, like, are the trees worth it? So we do a reconnaissance and there we do plots. And that's where we collect heights, diameters, species, any like spruce beetle or pine beetle attack con. So like the mushrooms growing on the sides of the trees. Those can lead to heart rodt or like signify heart rodt. Oh, I see. Either they

Alexis: 20:27

come after

Emma: 20:28

too. Yeah. Yeah. Quality. So like, yeah, pathogens, scarring cuz that lets in pathogens cuz then that tree is gonna be less valuable. Yeah. So we collect all this information and then decide, okay, it's worth it. It basically we're just looking at the volume. Like is this going to be like, is enough money gonna come outta this block to pay for us to go in? Yeah. So that's what we wanna find out with the reconnaissance or the rei we call them. Okay. So once we do that, then we go with the ribbons and then we start laying out. But it really de, with these plots, we do'em every say 200 meters or per timber type we call it. We walk around and you're like, okay, all I'm seeing is spruce and pine. Cool. And do a plot. If that changes to Pure Pine, I would do another plot, because that's a different type of composition of trees, like only Pines. It's different, but this area is mixed, so you'd wanna, you stratify it and it's not to the centimeter, like in the field, you're just kind of looking, you're like, okay, this is where it's breaking up.

Alexis: 21:25

A general view of

Emma: 21:26

it. Yeah. It's like pretty average. More or less. Oh, sometimes you're standing and you're like, that is all pine and then it changes. Sometimes it's really clear lines and it's, it's kind of cool to see of like the timber types Yeah. Of like where it changes and it's just, I mean, it all has to do with the coy of the area, but yeah, it's interesting to see.

Alexis: 21:44

Yeah, that's, it's so cool. So many things stood out there. One is the fact that you can't even just look at a forest and have that knowledge in your head to be like pine spruce and luck. Like the fact that that's just second nature to you. To be able to like look at all of these species and identify them instantly is so cool. Mm-hmm. But the complexity of the volume, but also how much data you're getting, like from an ecology point of view, you're looking at pathogens, you're looking at disease rates, you're looking at spec species, ization, and kind of like geographic distribution. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The amount of data that y'all are collecting is, is pretty bar none. Like that's, that's really interesting.

Emma: 22:23

It's a lot of, yeah. Data. And that's just for the tree part. And there's the streams, the actual ecology, wildlife. All that. But the initial part is like just seeing where the, the wood is also on that. When we're looking for that, we do look for the streams because every stream is, cut out with boundary. It's like removed from the cutting area with boundary ribbons. So like no stream is ever just logged over. We, it's all over. It's our watersheds, our waterways, and yeah. So during our rei, we note all the stream channels cause and then we'll eventually do riparian assessments, like the stream assessments, for if they're like fish bearing or not. Cool. Because when our roads cross it, it depends if we need a bridge or not. And bridges are expensive, so it's like kind of a, there's a big snowball effect with like everything we do. Like everything relates to everything. Cause if there's bridges, yeah, like I was saying, bridges are expensive. So if you have a bunch of pushing streams in your block, you better have good trees. Mm. Yes. Otherwise why are we building bridges? To get there. Yeah. Yeah. So if trees might be great. Can I get a road there now? Mm-hmm. So kinda goes hand in hand, like trees might be amazing, but they're in a gully. Okay. Yeah. Well that's, they're staying there. So that's also where our retention comes from, is those natural just areas that we can't harvest.

Alexis: 23:47

Yeah. That, that's not worth it. That you're just like, absolutely not. Leave it, let it be. Or even if it's even dangerous, it's worth it. It's too dangerous. Or the, like, logistics of it. Yeah.

Emma: 23:56

Yeah. It's all about the economics of the, of the block.

Alexis: 23:59

But, but in a way, economics is tied to ecology, ecological health. Mm-hmm. Right. And to the health mm-hmm. Of the forest, because it'll be like stream bearing and resource management. Mm-hmm. So in a way it's, it's a good way to be. It seems like it's just for the money, but not, it actually protects, yeah. Protects

Emma: 24:18

the area. Yeah, it definitely goes both ways. I think. I mean, the goal is of course making the money. Yeah. Cause that's the industry. But there's all this legislation and, you know, stewardship that's involved that you can't just ignore cuz it's legal requirements. Mm-hmm. So that, that's good. That's good that those are in place. And then each licensee or whoever's managing the forest will have their own called Forest stewardship plan. And if they have any extra little things in their area that they wanna add, for example, something that might be added is, they're called, we do extra retention patches within the block. It makes it more patchy and it's referred to as dash distance for like a, a moose or a deer. Oh. So basically anywhere that they're standing in the open cup block, they should only have like 200 meters to get to any forest. I see. So if we have too big of an opening, we have to put a retention patch in the middle so that that moose has a, a break. So we're not making huge openings for, and then it's not safe. Yeah. For the moose. They just get too exposed. We need to make it like the connectivity of the forest and stuff. So in certain areas that is required cuz that's part of the forest stewardship plan. But some areas it's not just cuz it's not high moose

Alexis: 25:34

habitat. It's not high moose habitat or elk or whatever, what have you. Yeah, yeah. It's gonna boost. So it's also kinda area

Emma: 25:39

dependent. Mm-hmm. Very cool. So that is really cool when we, and then, yeah, we also, we do the ecology. as well, which is just digging soil pits and then identifying plants. So like one job is, it takes like half an hour and you're just in one spot digging a 60 centimeter pit. Texturing the soil, identifying plants, like looking at the horizons and basically, and then it's all data collection. And then that tells us a lot about the site. Like is it water receiving? Is there a water table? Sometimes is like what plants are growing tell you can tell you a lot. Some plants. Mm-hmm. But some plants grow everywhere so it doesn't, can't always be an indicator, but some

Alexis: 26:16

are like kinda your elevation Yeah. Canary in the coal mine plants that you're like, okay, I know exactly what's happening. Yeah. Yeah. Very

Emma: 26:24

cool. And so then that directly goes to the planting. So when we collect all the ecology data, plant soils up, everything. Mm-hmm. Then that goes to deciding how it's gonna be replanted. Oh, very. It's funny enough. Yeah. But it's like, yeah. For the site, we don't just go, oh, this was a spruce stand. We're gonna replant spruce. Like, you'd think that would make sense. Yeah.

Alexis: 26:46

But what

Emma: 26:47

you would based on, yeah. But the thing is, so it's like for a succession is once the mature species, like for example, if there's a spruce forest mm-hmm. And then the pine is like suppressed or whatever, as soon as that a tur spruce falls over and makes an opening in the canopy that suppressed pine gets light and comes up. So it's like a heterogeneous landscape. So, but we, when we're just, we kinda make it all one when we go in there. Okay. But no, naturally it would, it would do that. And so like say when that spruce dies, well maybe, yeah. Pine is meant to go in now, so. Wow. I think theology has something that tells us, like, it's like four pages of data and then, keys, it's, everything has keys that you go through to kind of give you a guide of. Where your data's going. So they don't necessarily like put it into Excel and do like actual like no, no, no. Crazy statistics. But we have keys like all four street, just keys, I dunno about mining or, but like sometimes you get data and then it's just work through a key and see the

Alexis: 27:51

best option, the best option of what you're gonna do. And like where sometimes description can be like that a little bit, if you're like, okay, describe being a rock. You're like, okay, how much, what is our percentage of this roughly? And then exactly where is that gonna put us here? Okay, now we're on the second part. Is it white, black? Like it, it can kind of do like that stepwise. So I could see it being mimicked and that idea of keys. Yeah. That's so cool. It's really, I love the kind of idea of not changing a landscape completely, of going from like a, the cut block. All of a sudden it goes to a plane, like the example with the moose. Mm-hmm. That the moose needs some connectivity cuz it's not a plain species. So it does need to have some connectivity between the cut block. And I also love that idea of using soil profile and biology there of like plant biology to be like, okay, what are we gonna plant here? And just how complicated a lifestyle of a, of a forest is. Right. Like the actual average life. Because like then you have forest fires, you have forests are meant to completely burn down and they're meant to like recycle and regrowth and that's, that's a complete different thing that maybe we don't have time to get into today, but that's a whole other Yeah. Our fire. Whole other kettle.

Emma: 29:02

Yeah. A fish. The fire suppression. Yeah. Yeah. No, in a nutshell it did kind of cause our, pine beetle epidemic. So, With all the, cuz we suppressed it to tic crop. Yeah. But then the pine beetle came in cuz there was all this pine and then it killed it and then we just had a tender forest and then it just burns our crop trees anyways. And then we went in and did salvage salvage harvests for the past seven years. 10 years more. Probably started like when I was still in university cuz when I started in forest three we were doing salvage harvesting of pine

Alexis: 29:37

beetle and pine.

Emma: 29:38

And now it's kind of ended cause it's all gone. Like we've done it all. Now we're. Moving on to live more valuable forests. But it was part of the management to like clean up. It was called cleanup, like salvage sanitation, all like similar words. Just make it a clear landscape again and we can replant it and Cause otherwise you just have dead sticks there. Yeah, and I mean for an ecology side that's fine, but for our management side, that's a bunch of land that could have live

Alexis: 30:03

trees. Yes. So we wanna make it start the cycle. Yes, exactly. Start it back again.

Emma: 30:08

And that kinda helps. We did salvage and so the licensees all got a break to harvest it. Like it kind of helped cuz it wasn't as expensive to harvest and we were clearing up the land. So I think it was kind of the best of both worlds and now we can replant healthy forests.

Alexis: 30:23

So I agree. Yeah. Now you can actually use that land and like restart the cycle and, and reboot it. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. Our la our next question was about like, what is the role of forced ecology and environmental science? But I think we, I think we nailed that one. I mean, I think we, I think we could skip over that one completely. Yeah. Because thank you so much for walking through that. Like, and, and I think if, if viewers or listeners, I think the one thing that stays with me is just how complicated it is and how interesting it is. Mm-hmm. Like how much data, how much goes into it, and it's just mm-hmm. It's one misconception is that it's a fairly like, simple process in forestry. Like that's a, a common misconception. And I think you just proved it like down that it is, it is not simple. And there's so much like environmental science that goes into it, which Yeah.

Emma: 31:14

Which is so important. Yeah. On our, on our side, like the planning side, this Yeah. The, for the side where you need the degree mm-hmm. For. Yeah, there's a lot that goes into it. A lot of like thinking, it's just like a puzzle piece is how I describe it. Like, you're doing a, a puzzle on a landscape. You have all these pieces and you have to like, fit it together, like ecology, wildlife, making money, safety, production, like, I mean, then all that side, but then yeah, planning it properly, efficiently. Mm-hmm. But I mean, yeah, we have tools like, and methods, you know, to do this. Of course, yes. Yeah. Because yeah. Otherwise it's like, how do I start?

Alexis: 31:53

No, completely. But it's, it's a problem that's too big to solve, but it, it's just cool that it's such a holistic thing of planning management and also reforestation and regrowth. The entire cycle is just really holistic, so that's really lovely to see. Mm-hmm. One thing that I know why you fell in love with this, cause we've talked about this before, is that mm-hmm. You fell in love with this, and you even mentioned it at the very beginning is because you got to go outside and you got to do a lot of fields work. Could you maybe kinda walk through what does forestry field work look like? What does a season look like? And then why do you love it? Like, why is it one of your favorite aspects of forestry? So yeah,

Emma: 32:33

first why it's my favorite. It's, I like the problem solving aspect and the dynamic like, Thinking like there's just so much, you're leading a crew and then you're also doing a block and you're also like making sure everyone's safe, but then you're like making sure everyone's doing well and then, yeah. So it's just, there's always something that's uhhuh gonna come up, you know, someone's got a problem or you have a problem, you can't figure it out and you're the only one with the answers until you go ask your, your boss later. But out in the field as a supervisor, like you're the one with the answers. So it's just always like mm-hmm problem solving and, and sometimes you go, well I don't know right now. We'll, we'll figure that out later. I'm gonna ask later and I'll keep a notebook sometimes when I don't know answers. So that's would be my favorite part is the problem solving and the dynamic and just, yeah, working with the crew and like having like, yeah, it's just really nice to like work with the crew and everyone doing the jobs and then like having something come together at the end. Yeah. Like when you look at the map at the end of the day, cuz we draw it all in the working map. Everyone's notes go to one spot and then you just get to see it come together. So that's really cool. Mm-hmm. Typically day. I mean, the summers when our busiest, but we work all year round. So we also work in the winters. Oh, that's different. And

Alexis: 33:48

summers, that's cold. Yeah,

Emma: 33:51

winter. Yeah. So we're on the snows snowshoes in the winter. You know, it's, it's more about staying warm and it's, the job itself though is easier because you don't have streams and you can't dig soil pits. Yes, it's

Alexis: 34:03

more, any of that can

Emma: 34:04

makes sense. Yes. Yeah. It's all just the rec, it's all just looking at the trees and going, okay, that looks like a gully. That looks like a stream must like check snow free, check snow free, like all the notes. All we can do is the timber types. Okay. And like what's the actual timber and maybe road locations. Cause you can see like the slope and you kinda where hit it sometimes hit, you can see rock. Yeah. Ok. So like in the winter, your typical day is pretty, it's only two tasks that you can really do. It's like figure out the road or figure out some general easy boundary or there's a lot of questions because, oh, that looks like a potential stream. That's a stream. Oh, we have no idea. I

Alexis: 34:38

don't know. Like, is there fish like wait till the summer.

Emma: 34:41

Yeah. So then in the summers, like our go time where everything is possible because. It's like, well, it's dry, relatively like you can hike anywhere. We're on quads now, you know? No snowshoes. Any that's like way quicker. So our like day we go camping first of all. So in the summer we do 10 day shifts, camping, remote camping. We have wall tents, generators, propane, the gas, like propane stoves, a big box trailer to bring everything in. And then that's our bear safe area that gets like towed. And then like, I mean, so during Covid we all switched to personal tents and then, so some people have stayed doing that. And personally I do too. I like my own room. Yeah. But then we have big canvas wall tents. Yeah. For like the group shared sleeping, like whatever on cots. And then like a wood stove for drying everything. So, Half the job becomes camp maintenance, in the summer. So like, you know, getting firewood, making sure you can dry your gear at the end of a wet day, and so it's ready for the next day and, and all that. And then yeah, every morning start with a safety meeting. Tailgates, they're called in forestry. I don't know what they're called in the other industries, but we call like a toolbox talk or a tailgate. Yeah,

Alexis: 35:51

we kind of Same. Same.

Emma: 35:53

Yeah. Yeah. And that's like your, your morning safety meeting and it's so serious. But it's called a tailgate meeting. Yeah. And they're like, you know, recorded and signed off on you go over like the daily hazards. Yeah. And then you quad, you walk, you get your way into wherever you need to be going. Sometimes there's a, a two hour walk in and walk in just to get to where you wanna work. And that's fun. It just, it's just more exhausting. And, and with those, you know, you can't get as much done, so that's always a, in the back of your head, but you can't change that part. So you just have, you just,

Alexis: 36:23

yeah. And it, yeah, like part of your job is the natural aspects. No. And part of your job is to be like, where are we gonna put in the road? So there is no road in that location, you know what I mean? Until the road goes in there, you're hoofing it like it's just part of the job.

Emma: 36:38

It's so weird to, you're like standing in a forest, you're like, okay, the road will be here. This is it. It's so, it really helped to see cut, like cup blocks and then built roads in, in the bush and stuff. Cause then you can relate it, you're like, oh. And you kinda compare it to imagine that as a forest before it was cut. And then that really helped in visualizing like, okay. Cause every road, anywhere, even in the cities now I'm like tainted. I can't see anything that wasn't a previous forest. Cause I'm like, this was all tree.

Alexis: 37:09

Yeah. You're like, this had to be a complete forest. Yeah. It's

Emma: 37:12

just, yeah. So that's. That's really interesting part of it too. But yeah, just figuring it out during the day we were do check-in. So we have handheld radio, so everyone splits up and then typically every hour, whatever, you know, you just check in with your crew. So he is like, you know, see everyone's doing answer questions and then, or usually people are talking all day anyways on the radio talking in or asking questions. It always depends on the dynamic like or whatever. But yeah, you just kinda just walk around all day doing whatever your designated task is, either doing the road boundary or assessing streams. So you just walk around finding streams. And then we have these use cards for everything. Fill out data for like any task you do. So yeah, do that or the ecot, so you have to carry around a big spade shovel all day. I do your eco spit and which kinda doubles as like a, a walking stick. But you know, it's got the. Those big, yeah, those classic like

Alexis: 38:00

digging shovels. Oh, I know those. Well, yeah, those snacks. Yeah. Right, right,

Emma: 38:05

right. Yeah. So those are, I mean, you kinda, you're like, eh, it's not so bad. Sometimes it helps cause when you're walking on like low down or logs, it's kinda helps. But I mean, you do what you have to do. Yeah. And then end of the day everyone meets back at the quads, the trucks, we go back, drive

Alexis: 38:23

home, repeat. Wow. No, it's, it's so cool. Like you, you said so many things that there that like I kind of wanna touch on and like, the first part I think is like one aspect that stood out is, and I could see it being so, Fulfilling is that your job? You can actively see your impact every single day in your impact. And like, it's so hands-on and so task based that you're like, yes, it's really dynamic. Yes, it's changing all the time, but like you can see your impact. And I could just be, I would be really proud of myself and I'm sure you are as well, when you're like, yeah. Clear off a section that you're like, yep, that's done. Like we can mm-hmm. Or we've like actively now collected that data or, or made that map. Yes. I could see that being like a really fulfilling part of it. And then I, I love the description of field work because it is this like, kind of romantic thing that's almost like going back in time because it's like mm-hmm. You're in the middle of the woods. No one's there. It's, it is this comradery aspect that all of of a sudden these people become your family, whether functional or dysfunctional or Yeah. Kind of combination of the boat. Right. And, and you're just living in the middle of the woods. Nothing, nothing is very serious. It's very isolated. It's very remote. Mm-hmm. But, but there's a beauty there and there's kind of I, I always found it very romantic of being like, walking around all day and, and like bathing in a stream and it just, I don't know. It, it felt so much fun. It was really, really new and novel and yes, and I loved it. I really did. I think

Emma: 39:54

it's cool cause I, I like, yeah, I like doing that survival hands-on stuff. I mean, it's not always like you're in survival mode, but it's more like, well, is there a bear over there? Like mm-hmm. Like there's always the things like, should I walk over this flow down and is it safe? Should I cross that stream? Like, you're always like risk assessing and being like, you know, is this good? Yeah. But no. At the, at the end of the day when you're like, okay, that sucked. But they actually feel pretty good now. Yeah. Like, it, it's rewarding cause you're like, you could have been screaming and crying, you know, maybe not in front of, but by your how, how come

Alexis: 40:25

Yeah. The hill you might have had a little, a little cry on the hill. It all happens. Everyone. Everyone goes, it's supposed

Emma: 40:31

to happen. Yeah. It's like, I encourage it almost if that's what's needed. Like don't take it out on the crew. Just go have your moment for it. Yes. That's what nos listening. Yes. Yeah. And so like, that's the best part. Just think, cause I'm, I grew up being a loud person, so I'm like, this is, I don't have to tide it. No, it's fine. Yeah. And then come back to town you and you forget. You're like, oh, don't, yeah. Don't talk so loud. Don't just scream. Like, it's kind of funny in the summer you're like, oh yeah,

Alexis: 41:04

cuz you have no social cuing.

Emma: 41:07

Yep. No, cuz out at camp. Like it, I mean, I don't know how it's for like your industry mining, but like anything can be talked about. Yes. Anything once you live together, it's like you talk about anything personal. You're like, yeah, I just did this la blah had like, had the best movement up on the hill. Like,

Alexis: 41:23

you know. Oh my goodness. Yes. There's so much toilet talk and there's so many things that you think is just normal and then you, it

Emma: 41:30

is like, I just met you, but now we're, it's halfway through shift and now we're, we're fine. Right. Okay. Yeah. It just, it's a weird dynamic that happens out there. Yeah. But you have to. Because yeah, you live in, you're eating and you're working together with your crew leaders and your crew. So you have to just, from 7:00 AM to 5:00 PM is when I'm a leader. And then after that, it's like Kate, like I'm not, we can be friends, like, well, not like we aren't during the day, but you know, the dynamic can shift. It can change

Alexis: 41:57

in the evening. It's, it's an interesting thing like living in that proximity with your people because it's a different mm-hmm. Dynamic that's hard to explain to others because you're like, I can never leave my coworkers. So like we, you almost end up having to have really frank, honest communication with everybody. Yeah. Because like, yes, you can talk about a little bit of everything, but you also have to almost hit a level of respect of just being like, Frank, it's too much right now. You need to stop talking about Top Gun. I know you've seen it 10 times and it's your favorite movie, but like, I don't wanna hear about it. So like, you just need to leave me alone. Like, you become far more, Realistic or harsh, or almost like, just honest, upfront. Yes.

Emma: 42:40

Yeah, yeah. No, it's true. It's true. Just matter of fact, like straightforward. So true. I don't know. And even if you do need a break, like you're out in the, go to your tent, go for a walk, go to the river, like go make dinner by yourself. Like Yeah. You know, it's, there's so much Yeah. Room to do whatever you want. Like you said, it's kind of romanticized in a way I think it is. Mm-hmm. Until those moments come where I question what I'm doing. Yes. That does happen. Mm-hmm. But then at the end of the day, I'm like, well, what else am I doing gonna do? Like, I love that, I love this, like where I am, like in those moments I'm like, yeah. Str outta the block or something. Like, one of the best moments was I was sle. We were sledding out and we don't normally work in the dark, like, but sometimes in the winter it gets dark a little earlier than you made it out. So sometimes you end up, yeah, yeah. Like sledding out. But it was just like sledding out like negative 15. But by that time wasn't that cold. And it was like, was the moon up there? Oh. And I'm just like, it was like dark and moon. I'm just sledding. I'm like, is this my job? Yeah. I was like, ok. It's like maybe that day, like the day sucked honestly was one of, it was really hard day. That's why it was so late. That's why you

Alexis: 43:44

got out late.

Emma: 43:45

Yes. Yeah. But like as I was going, I was like, okay. But I, yeah, I like, I was like, this is so cool. And I often have those moments like, you get to the top of mountain, just look out and it's like, okay, this ain't, this can't be that bad. No. So yeah, those parts, I'm like, Like nothing can beat it. Yeah. It's like a vacation. I'm like, people pay to do this. So I'm like

Alexis: 44:06

completely yes. To do this. It's amazing. Kinda wilderness. And I think like one, it's so beautiful, and two, I would always think of being like, how many other people have seen this? And it's probably really little. Like there's probably hasn't been much human impact in this. Like one, two, one place. So we're probably one of the first people to see it and like how blessed we are and like how grateful I am that I actually got to see that. Mm-hmm. But then I think that there again is this aspect that it's so powerful as a woman. I think that it's so hands-on. It's so problem solving and it's also so absolutely, challenging both physically and mentally. I always liked that aspect of fields work. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That I felt very powerful after I completed, even if it was a hard day, even if I had to have a little cry afterwards, I was like, no, you did it. It's fine. Like that's, it's

Emma: 44:53

empowering, like you just touched on. It's exactly it. You feel empowered at the end. You're like, okay, so who said this was a man job? Like mm-hmm. It historically, or a male job, a more like masculine job, like maybe, but that doesn't, there's no, that doesn't limit who can do it. Like I said at the very start, it's all about drive and just wanting to learn and wanting to try. Cause I've seen people who, you know, you maybe would be like, you're not gonna make it in forestry. Maybe just based on education history, like who knows what. But then they've excelled fast further than anyone and it's like, okay, it's only the drive and learning and like willing to learn. Willing to

Alexis: 45:36

learn. I think. Yeah, I'm possibly and willing

Emma: 45:38

to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Like really, I mean, it helps to have some knowledge or maybe like can already you've walked in the woods before. Cause then yeah, you don't have to go over that learning curve, but it doesn't matter. Yeah. Anyone can do it. And that's the. The part that's cool to realize, cuz I work with a lot of women too. Just people from all like all over the board. Yeah. Like it's not just your typical like

Alexis: 46:02

forestry career path or Or one situation. One type of person.

Emma: 46:05

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's so dynamic. Like that's, we have people from multiple countries now that have moved here to work in forestry. Maybe they're, they did their degree in another country in forestry and then now they came to, it's just that keeps happening now more and more. So it's really cool cause you get all these different backgrounds, you get different experiences and it's like, yeah, guys, girls, everyone. It's not just this like yeah, niche, like only you can do street me type. Yeah. And that's like how it used to be or your stereotype.

Alexis: 46:35

Yeah. What you think of a forester of this kind of like gruff man? Like it, I, I love that's

Emma: 46:39

just, just a man. Yeah. An older man, not even a young man. An older, yes.

Alexis: 46:44

Yeah, an older man from like that generation of like the seventies kind of is what you think of. So, and that's fair. That's

Emma: 46:49

who used to do it. But then now they're the ones just doing like the, the actual logging machine operating. But now our side is more, it's the younger generation doing this side of it. And honestly, I dunno where it's gonna go when all those guys retire. Cause only the machine operators, all the guys doing the actual harvesting are older. Older. Like they should be retiring. They will be retiring soon. And yeah, I'm just interested to see who's gonna take over. Like, I've always wanted to go on one of those machines, but like, like the hours you work, it's worse than like what we do. We, our hours aren't even that bad. Yeah, it's insane doing that job. So yeah, people wanna do that. That's a whole other side, but.

Alexis: 47:30

I could imagine. And I, I think you touched on two things that I, I would like to talk about. Mm-hmm. Like the, the one I love that it's changed and I love that the demographic has gone from this like, homogenous thing. And I think that's because the, the industry itself has changed. It sounds like all of a sudden there's new techniques, there's new technology, but it's also like new science behind it on the planning side. Mm-hmm. And like reforestation. Where do you think the future of forestry is gonna go? Like, yes. One big aspect is like maybe the actual logs are gonna retire and that's, that's one thing that's gonna change. But as an industry, where do you kind of see you guys headed?

Emma: 48:07

That's tough. I've like wondered this. Yeah. And thought. Cause I, it could go either way. Honestly, unless we find a different resource for houses, we're gonna have to keep getting wood from somewhere. And I mean, I dunno how it will change. Honestly, but I could, maybe smaller scale, but then I think about how that would affect how much we are relied on in DC to feed. Like, well we do a lot of offshore STAs over to different parts of Asia, China, Japan, like just raw logs. And then I think for the states, like honestly I'm not keeping up, I'm not up to date on where we are with that now, but I think we, we do do a lot like, I mean we do have a lot of export and then also just supplying Canada and like, it's huge industry. So that worries me cause I'm like, we're gonna run out resource soon. The management's getting better, like the ecology side, the, biodiversity, like these more like with the moose patches. Mm-hmm. That's more recent. And like stream reserves, like the meters. So say like on a stream you only had five meters before. No, it's 10. Yeah. That's wonderful. Of a, of a boundary. So it's changing in that way. So I think like, It's a hard balance between the EC economics and the ecology. Yeah,

Alexis: 49:26

I like that. The, and now we're, yeah, I like that the ecology has gone bigger and has been more protected. But you are right, like we're still heavily dependent on this resource, so who knows if maybe the material side of like building changes or mm-hmm. We do a different scale of efficiency maybe, or a smaller plot, but

Emma: 49:48

somehow it becomes cheaper to do the operation. But it's just, it's not, it's those ma those log like machine operators. Like it's just so much money put into that side and for enough, like, I mean, it's a dangerous job and it's all production based. Mm-hmm. It's all based on how much you're cutting. Yeah. So, Yeah, it's, it's, it's hard to say fire mitigation, kind of back to the, but it's in forestry, but we've started fire mitigation more now as opposed to prevention. Whereas they go in and like thin out a forest like say near, from near Mackenzie? Yeah. Near Prince George here. It's like the main highway and then it's just an offshoot off the main highway and it's like one road in and out. And it was built around, it was a mining forestry town. Ok. That's how it came about. And so they fire mitigated that road. Yeah. Cause if it were to catch on fire, there's no way in and out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's money in that too. Less because you're not, you're leaving the big trees and you're taking all the shrubby stuff from around.

Alexis: 50:43

Yes. All of the fire hazards you're taking all of the small brush, like the fuel.

Emma: 50:47

Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So I dunno, money would've to come somewhere to do that. But I mean, that is a bunch of jobs too in the industry. And like, we've done that at our company too. But as far as like the logging. It's really, cuz it's expensive and we're getting to all the places we can, like up north, we don't do helicopter logging, we don't do cable like, just straight up cable. It's like a No. Cause it's a chair lift for

Alexis: 51:13

the log. Yes. Yeah. I've seen it, I think in like old photos and stuff that you're like, yeah. That's classic coastal.

Emma: 51:20

Yes. Yeah. And it's only for like one log at a time or half of it going up. And like, those are for the big coastal trees. But up north it's just like, it's called ground base. Like it's just the machines on the ground. It's like a, it looks like an excavator with a saw on the end and. Just

Alexis: 51:36

bla like cuts, grabs it and cut and just kinda pick up sticks

Emma: 51:39

except the other way. It's kinda crazy to watch, like, you see how powerful we are Wow. As humans. Yes. Like watching, you're like, that's a forest and now it's on the ground. And that was 10 minutes. Like Yeah. It's

Alexis: 51:50

pretty, it's pretty shocking. I think. I do think everyone should see it though, because I think like it does put into play consumption. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it puts into play like resource management. I always thought the same as, in my mind, I've seen how intricate it is and seen that it's basically this whole village and city underground and you're just like, this is insane that people have done this. But it also shows our reliance on this industry that like, we need these resources, we've used these resources, mm-hmm. I'd be interested to see, and I, I am interested to see where forestry goes and, and we'll see kinda the changes that are gonna happen within the industry. Maybe it would.

Emma: 52:29

So I mean, one thing I just thought of that we'd do a, a management style. It's called visual quality. Okay. Like a visual quality assessment is done. And that is based on, so like a, a park or a heavily used area by people, the public, if it is from that area, you look across and there's a forest. And if we were to cut that forest, how visible is that? Cup block. Oh, so that is looked at. So that's why you don't see cup blocks anywhere in the city? Yeah. That's Or in the city or in a park or at a campground, or, that's true. Anywhere. Like there's no cup blocks. Yeah. Hidden. We don't do it. But then we do just hidden from the public. but like, I mean this is public knowledge. You could look up,

Alexis: 53:07

like Oh no, totally. It's crowd land and it, it's, it's resource management. But it does make sense that there's an optic side of forestry.

Emma: 53:13

I think it's a better way. I don't wanna, I don't necessarily, if we can cut somewhere that's not in a high visual area, I would rather do that. Mm-hmm. But if it is in a high visual area, what we do is mimic a natural disturbance. Oh, oh,

Alexis: 53:26

so for example, forest fire or something.

Emma: 53:28

Yeah. Yeah. So forest fire, that's the common one. But now we're not doing that as much. Cuz also another, we've been working more with First Nations. All the first Nations groups have kind of like been working with the licensee. So they get this relationship now. Wonderful. So we're not just doing clear, like no one wants

Alexis: 53:44

that. Yeah. No, no one wants, no, no. Absolutely. We

Emma: 53:46

want more the patchy. Yeah, completely. So we don't, we can't mimic fires anymore. But we did, for example, we did do that on the coast. The one I did, it was in a grizzly bear habitat area, which was fun. But, we were laying out, this was for, he logging, so there's no roads there or anything, but it was right across is, it's the, a reservoir in BC and you could see from a highway right across it, the whole land side. And so we just hung these EMS in the landscape to mimic an avalanche shoot. Oh. So that when you look at it, you're like, oh, it's an avalanche. Whatever. Whoa, that is. But we laid up the block like that. And then in turn, that helps like grizzly bears like to walk down avalanche shoots. Yes. In the spring. Yeah. Right. So yeah, so we mimic that. So it's all like, I, you know, it's kind of best of everyone's fris. We don't have to, it's not an eye sore. The grizzly bear have some attack. I mean, yes, we're cutting down forest still, but, but you have to the management there. Yes.

Alexis: 54:41

But it's still, it's still actually, it's, even if it, if it might be like, came about by optics, it's still a holistic, like it's now mimicking a true natural system that's occurring within that environment. Right? Yeah. It's, it's a different way to, to manage forestry. That's really cool. So I feel like it could go

Emma: 55:00

more in that way if we have to start harvesting things that are more in the visual areas. Could start doing that. But I think now we really tried just to not, but if like even last summer we, we were in a high visual area and so from the lake we, you kind of also can use the landscape like the topography and cut the stuff that's kind of behind. Yeah. Like in this

Alexis: 55:22

part of the mountain. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Emma: 55:24

And so you still hide it. And that was also common too, on the coast. And it's easier to do that with he logging cuz you can just lay out a patch. Yeah. You don't have to make a road go to it. Cuz that's a challenge. Yeah.

Alexis: 55:35

That's a total like band infrastructure. Yeah.

Emma: 55:38

Like, I mean, roads can go anywhere, but we'll break the bank, building the road to get to the trees. Right. If it's just like a rock cliff or, you know. So that was very cool. Yeah. Be really careful with that. But I, yeah, I think I could go in direction, the visual management. Just kind of change our management style a bit. Yeah. Like, just so more to make that more common. Yeah. Yeah.

Alexis: 56:02

I agree. Like make it more holistic, make it kind of more mimic natural and, and bring that to you. I, I really

Emma: 56:07

like that

Alexis: 56:08

management style. I think that's fantastic. I think that's one my favorite, like new piece of information I've learned on this so far. Like, I, I really, I really, really like that. And one thing on your original answer that we were talking about, mm-hmm. We were talking about kind of like a new, a new generation that's coming within forestry and maybe for people who are just starting in forestry. I know we've talked about the importance of like community and mentorship and being a mentor and having mentors early on in your career. Mm-hmm. If someone's just starting, what would be your advice of like where to go for mentors in, or community in forestry, and then, what to do to maybe foster that mentorship?

Emma: 56:52

It's really just taught like within your company. Like my mentor for my, like my actual mentor for my designation is within the comp. They have to be within your company, like, but any other like general mentor, it's just everyone you work with, your crew leader, your supervisor, their boss, other people at the office. So real, like I've found it just within the company, like all the things I've learned in forestry have been within the industry, in the company. Maybe you see someone out on the road and you have a chat or you're out at the logging camp and they're with the loggers, logging your blog. And so you can be like, Hey, what'd you think of that road I did like, that only happened to me once. Like normally you don't have that connection with the people harvesting your block. Just pretty much everywhere you are in the industry at work or at the office, in the field, you always, there're just, there are mentors everywhere. That's where I've found'em. Finding the job in the first place would be like, we're always at career fairs. Not I'm just US but all forestry companies. Wonderful. Even, in Vancouver, cuz Spectrum, we, we came down to UBC and did like a presentation for one of the career fair things. We were one of the tables. Cool. So yeah, going to any of those things because forest, like they're coming down like the UBC and stuff. And I mean there is UBC forestry, so if you're in it down there, you, you already know it exists. But that would be a place to start and then get your foot in the door at a job. I would say my first job was with the government with BC timber sales and they're like, it's, it's great cause they give you, like, they train you and I mean it's a, a government job. There's lots of training and then you get all this experience and then you're working with a lot of. Like, RPFs, the registered foresters and there's just all this knowledge always coming at you. That's, yeah. That's really where it is. Just once you're really, once you get the job, you, you can, you can just start talking to people and you'll start learning. Yeah. You're in even as

Alexis: 58:40

a first year. Yeah. Yeah. You're in, you're officially a forester whether you want to or not. You're basically, you're started and, and your mentors are gonna come to you is what I'm hearing. Which I, I love pretty much. And

Emma: 58:52

Cause it's your, like supervisors, crew leaders or like I said, yeah. Like even my project manager's leader could be, is like a mentor or some, you know, cuz everyone's got different knowledge, slightly different expertise, different backgrounds. So like, everyone's got something to offer. Mm-hmm. I dunno, I learned stuff even from the new hires when I'm training. Like I'll learn something and it's, that makes sense. Infor, once you're just in the industry, like there's always people to talk to.

Alexis: 59:21

It makes sense when it's such a complicated industry that like there is gonna be knowledge. I think it's a wonderful advice in life in general, that everyone has something that you can learn from, but I think that in this industry where it's so complicated, we just scratched the surface and there was already a million different things to think about. I could see that being really true within your community and community knowledge and community learning being like high, high priority. We're just, we're almost at the top of the hour. We're at the top of the hour. The one thing that I wanted to talk about is one aspect is that you're working currently on your registered professional Forester. Congratulations. Mm-hmm. It's amazing. Thank you. Could you kind of walk through maybe for people who are in the industry, your experience of that so far, and then what goes into getting that professional license? How has it been?

Emma: 1:00:09

So you have a total of four years to complete it. Minimum two, once you're. You applied to the association? It, it was the Association of BC Forest Professionals. It has recently been changed to forest professionals of bc. Okay, okay. Yes. F PBC now. So, but that's the association. It's only, it's just for BC I think it's similar to their designations, I'm not sure. But it's only for BC you have to be working to be a part of it cuz you have to do diaries journaling. Oh, I see. As you're going through, through, yeah. So you have to journal like what you're doing at, at the, at the job. It also costs a lot of money to be a part of the association. So the company, you work for a company and they pay for it and that's wonderful. The deal. So you're never just doing this and not working cause it's ipo. Like you can't do your, or your, your professional diary. Okay. Without it. So yeah, company pays for it. Your yearly membership, you doling and then you just work regularly. It's all in your own time. And it's all just kind of self-constructed. You have a mentor, so you choose a mentor, they agree, they sign off, and they're the ones who individual your exams and such. And they're just there, like as your mentor is for questions. Yeah. But really it is just self-guided. Okay. And then, yeah, there's six modules at the end of each module. There's a test, just online. Yeah. In the, and then there's, you have to submit a professional document, which luckily, like if you've been working for a while, like I've done some. So that part will be easy. I can just use a site plan. I've made

Alexis: 1:01:36

You have a little tool there. Yeah. That's a little bit easier and more accessible. Okay.

Emma: 1:01:42

And then, yeah, once you're completed all that stuff, modules, diary, little assignments, and then. Then you got it. If you complete it all and you're good. Yeah. Then you get your stamp and you're good. Like, then you have your registered professional, professional forester and you can sign off on those site plans, which is like the legal, like good to go

Alexis: 1:02:00

liability.

Emma: 1:02:01

Yes. Completely. I mean, it's like any

Alexis: 1:02:02

stamp. Yeah. Yeah. That's So it's very cool. It sounds onerous. It does sound like it's like a four year grind, but it's like a kind of like self, self-taught or self-guided grind of it. Have you found it? It's definitely hard. Yeah. I was gonna say, how have you found it challenging?

Emma: 1:02:20

Cuz you don't get paid. Although I think we've, yeah, yeah. Like it's not paid. Like cuz we get paid on contractors. We get paid on the work, done by the client. Basically like anything that we do that's not paid by the client mm-hmm. Is outta the company money. Fine. But that's not a job we have. You know, we can work it out maybe. Ways around that. But no, ultimately you're not just getting eight hour day just to work on your association stuff. Yeah. So it has to be kinda your Yeah. Your own time. But yeah, so that, that's kinda the part that's really hard because after work, I don't want do school. Like, it feels like I'm just back in university, which Yeah, that was already took a while to get through, which is fine, but we did it and now it's just like back the

Alexis: 1:03:06

Yeah. You're like, I didn't, I didn't sign up for this. I didn't wanna go back, you know, it wasn't my intention. No. It's important

Emma: 1:03:13

is happening, but Yeah. Yeah. No, it's still worth it to get. I'm like, I hate that it's just looming over my head, but I mean, I got one and a half more years and like we have to mm-hmm. We'll get it done. We'll get it and it'll be so good once I have it, like, oh, totally. That's why I'm, I mean, yeah.

Alexis: 1:03:29

I had to do it. It's worth it. It's, it's going, you're going to be able to get paid higher later. So it's just more like delayed gratification on a pay front. But I could understand that that's, that's frustrating to a company. Yeah. Cause a company

Emma: 1:03:42

needs an RPF to do the work we do. Like anyone can do the work under the guidelines, but mm-hmm. The RPF has to sign it. Yeah. If your company doesn't have that,

Alexis: 1:03:51

you can't do the work completely. You're, you're not liable.

Emma: 1:03:54

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, it's definitely worth it. That's definitely my motivation to keep going and it'll be so worth it once I get the stamp. Oh,

Alexis: 1:04:03

a hundred percent. And like, it's a year and a half or a year and a bit. It's gonna go by really quick. It is gonna be worth it. Mm-hmm. And maybe this, this segues into our, our, our last one is, mm-hmm. Maybe this is your answer or maybe it's something different, is what's something that you're currently working on and looking forward to right now?

Emma: 1:04:21

Yeah. I guess long, kind of, more long-term would be my, my designation term. It's just, Project by project and getting that done, which actually like, like doing the projects for the work. Mm-hmm. Like for this job feels like doing a school project by yourself. I could imagine. Yeah. Well, in a way, like you have all your, your team and then you have the GIS department and you have your, like you, it's not by yourself, like there's a lot of people involved, but then you're putting it together in the office. Like it's just me doing all the deliverables or the office work. Mm-hmm. Putting it all together and then making the maps pretty, like, it's gotta be presentable, so it just, it really goes back, it just feels exactly like school. I'm like, wow. We don't ever really get away from it, but I'm like, I'm used, I'm good at, I can do this. Yeah. This is what I'm used

Alexis: 1:05:06

to, so it's in my wheelhouse. I'm okay with it. Yeah. Yeah.

Emma: 1:05:11

Just, yeah. Yeah. That. And then the designation, just always working on, on something and then trying to get like, just ignore all that too and then work on myself personally too away from work. But yeah, so it's a, a balance between all of it because all of it's very rewarding. So yeah, I could see that. I say that's,

Alexis: 1:05:30

I like the balance aspect. I I love that. I think that's so important. Yeah. And I love that answer, that that's part of it. I could see the designation. You're almost there. It's gonna Yeah. By really quick. And the school project part Yeah. Is super funny. But it makes sense when it's client based that you're like, yep. Just wrap up each one individual of like short term that it's done and invested

Emma: 1:05:51

and off. Mm-hmm. You're really trying to impress someone now, the teacher.

Alexis: 1:05:55

Yeah. It's a date you're dating a client basically, and being like, please, yeah, please. Like my work. Just like it.

Emma: 1:06:02

Yeah.

Alexis: 1:06:03

Yeah. Yes. No, maybe please hire me again.

Emma: 1:06:08

And I mean, honestly, and then all the constructive feedback, even from my leaders, or my client, like, it's always, you're always learning something new. Yeah. Like, and the constructive criticism and constructive feedback is so important. Well, probably in any job, but. I know in this job it's so important. Even just for my crew giving constructive criticism, it's always just motivating to everyone. So, yeah, I I like to receive it too. And then you're like, okay, I didn't completely mess up. Oh, completely.

Alexis: 1:06:35

And it's, it's a, yeah, it's a hard job and it's a complicated job and it's a hard lifestyle too. So I think when you do get that feedback to be like, it was all worth it. The output was good enough and it was worth it. Mm-hmm. Because the input was really hard to get. We were out in the middle of the woods. It was raining for two weeks straight. We were miserable. There was grizzly bears, it was, everything broke down because it was the field. Like all of the input is so hard to get. So that doesn't change

Emma: 1:07:01

across industries. Good to know. Everyone breaks,

Alexis: 1:07:04

there's always a problem. Yep. Duct tape solves everything. You're like, why am I duct wapd? Yeah. Yeah. I was about to say, I was literally about to be like, why did I just duct tape in WD 40 something? I went to four years of school to be like, these are my two things that I use anyways. Honestly, Because the input's so hard, though. I could see that output. Like when you get that criticism and get that feedback. Mm-hmm. And it's constructive and good. I could just see it being so, so valuable. Yeah. Emma, this has been such a delight. Thank you so much for coming onto the show. I really appreciate, so appreciate it. It was lovely talking to you. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. That was

Emma: 1:07:43

really fun. Thanks for having me on here. I really enjoyed talking about it. It's really nice to share the stories and just Yeah, get it out there. Cause it, most of the time you're just by yourself in the woods thinking about everything. So yeah, it's really good to talk about.

Alexis: 1:07:57

Yeah, it was, it was lovely to hear and to learn more and to hear your stories and I can't wait, for everyone else to be able to listen to. So thank you again. And thank you guys for listening. This is the Smoko podcast. I'm gonna link a bunch of resources that Emma talked about. We're going to link them onto her podcast and onto her blurb. So please check them out and listening. Bye-bye for now. Thank you. Thank you.