Alexis 0:00

Hello. Hello everybody and welcome to the Smoko Podcast. My name is Alexis Armstrong, your host. Nice to meet you. The MoCo Podcast is a place to celebrate and highlight women, trans women, and non-binary folk working within stem and trade occupations. So please tune in, take a break, join us, we're on Smoko. Today we are extremely lucky to be joined by the lovely Patricia Robinson, who is a first year carpentry apprentice with a local 27 union. And so she's gonna talk all things carpentry, her experience of carpentry, her experience in the trades, her projects that she's working on right now, and also her projects that she's working on with Habitat Hamilton. So I'm really excited to talk with her today. I'm looking forward to it. Patricia, thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate it immensely.

Patricia 0:44

Thank you so much, Alexis. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for asking

Alexis 0:47

me. Oh my goodness. You're welcome. It's a freaking honor. I, I love, love the fields of carpentry because I don't know anything about it. And it's been one of those ones that I'm like, if I changed it up and if I redid my career and did something new, I in trades, I would choose Carpent Country. So I am so excited to learn more. I really am. Oh, that's awesome. And, and maybe that's where we start, Patricia, is, is how did you find this, this, experience and how did you find this industry of carpentry? Because I know you have a little bit of a different story that you were in office administration for 10 years. Could you explain like your draw to carpentry, why the switch to trades, and then what was that moment that you were like, yep, it's time. I'm going back to school, I'm gonna become a carpenter. How did that happen?

Patricia 1:36

Well, I mean, I've always ev ever since I was a kid, I've always been curious about how things are built or, you know, I've, I didn't have any male role models in my life that did any kind of blue collar work. My dad was a businessman and, I come from a family of women. I only have sisters. But I always was curious. I always thought that like power tools were cool, but I just never thought that that was something that I could do because I saw success as a briefcase in a suit, in an office. Yeah. In a Yes. You know? Yeah. So my brain always automatically went two. Well, like that's what I need to do if I wanna be successful. And then it was when I started having my romantic relationships and I had boyfriends that I lived with, and they would come home just like filthy and, they would have the most interesting stories about their workday. Yeah. And, and I was envious of it, but I still thought like, but there's no way I could do it. Like, there's no way that I was smart enough or strong enough or ah, you know? And then what happened was I started watching, furniture restoration videos on YouTube

Alexis 2:39

all the time. Amazing. Okay. Love

Patricia 2:41

it. So then it was just, even just like using a sander. Or like painting or any of that stuff. So I started taking a women in word working, course at Mohawk College, which is a college here at, in Hamilton. And I did that nights and I fell in love. And I was like, okay, well this could, like, I just saw it as like a side hustle I could do. After my administration jobs. And then I randomly came across this pre-apprenticeship program for carpentry because after I started working with all the wood, I noticed that even if I'm driving around, I would see like people framing houses. Yeah. And like even just, and I was just instantly drawn to it being like, that would be so cool to do. So I saw this, not me, I

Alexis 3:23

can't do it yet, but like, that would be so cool to do.

Patricia 3:26

Yeah. Like, like that's so neat. Yeah. And then I fell down the rabbit hole of TikTok and Instagram of seeing other women posting themselves, doing all this, this awesome stuff. And I was like, why can't I like, this is so, so cool. And then I found this free program, at that same, college that I was at, and, I signed up, I interviewed for it and I got it and then I just, I haven't looked back since. And then that course was just like life changing, like I loved every single day and I was like, this is what I've been missing. Yeah. This is

Alexis 3:59

the spark that I wanted. This is like kind of, oh my goodness. Like, yeah, Patricia, that's a crazy story and I love it on so many like aspects of it. I love that. It was basically like a ga, the gateway drug was restoring furniture. That's what, yeah, that was the first like little taste to be like, okay, this, this is, could be like what it feels like to use power tools and to like make something. But I love that it was Instagram. That's so cool and so powerful that it was like influencers in Instagram that showed you that you could do this and this could be you as well. That's fantastic.

Patricia 4:35

Yeah, no, definitely. I would say that was probably the biggest influence that. Kind of made me realize that cuz I think that we're kind of built or raised to, to be certain things and not be other things. And I think once you visually see another woman that could be around your size or looks like you or is from the same area as you and they're doing it, they're like, oh, oh my god, I can do it too. Yeah. Like, you know, you know, like that thought doesn't really cross your mind until you really see it with your own eyes. So

Alexis 5:07

a hundred percent. I couldn't agree more cuz I, it's funny because when you were describing your childhood, I was like, oh, that was my family. My dad's a businessman as men as well. Yes. And then, I have nothing but sisters. And so growing up we weren't really, we had the same thing that we weren't really exposed to trades into stem. And both myself and my younger sister who's a welder, we both kind of had the same kind of, Trajectory of not knowing it existed. Always being really interested in building something. Yeah. Thinking that we had to be a certain way. And then it wasn't until we saw a female representation, myself being my first, geology professor and hers being, someone who like tinkered on ships and like taught her welding until we saw our first women doing it. That wasn't until we switched and then we were like, okay, yeah, we're gonna do it. Because I think, I think you're right. Like you do get brought up so, so traditional in a way that you don't think that this is possible. So I love, I love that you were able to discover it and I hope that you've reached out to those influencers and been like, Hey guys, I did it. Like, I hope you've talked to them.

Patricia 6:13

Oh my gosh. It's so funny because some of those influencers have actually become close friends of mine, which is amazing. Oh, I love that. Because a lot of them ended up actually being founders of the, I think we'll talk about it later, the women on site. That I'm a part of, so That's cool. It's like meeting your heroes, right? So, Aww. It's awesome.

Alexis 6:32

Yeah. Oh, that's so freaking cool. And yeah, and I love to hear about that. I'm excited to talk more about women onsite, than at the end of it. I love that those were the influencers that brought you into it and yeah. Maybe this is like kind of what we are already talking about is that because this wasn't something that you grew up with, my understanding is that you weren't really familiar with power tools until you probably took that first college course, at Mohawk. Could you kind of walk through how you overcame that fear? Because I think people think that that's a really big barrier to traits if they didn't grow up With, power tools or being comfortable with that. Not only, like, they haven't even seen that they can be in traits, but if they don't have power tool access, they get really nervous and they think it's not for them. How did you overcome that fear?

Patricia 7:16

I think mainly it's just. I just kind of went into it knowing that I knew nothing Okay. And expressed to everyone around me that I knew nothing. Yeah. You know, you know, I think a lot of people go into it and they just kind of wanna, they don't wanna hide how little they know, you know what I mean? Cause they don't wanna seem like they're No, no, no, no. Like just, and I luckily had great people in my program that were very patient with me. Oh, I love that. So once everyone around you knows that it's your first time using it or using power tools, then they're patient. They'll really teach you how to do it. And once you get the hang of it, it's easy. It's, so I think that's, I think it was just the people around me. I was, I've been very lucky. I've had really supportive mentors within schooling and within work. So, I think that's kind of what helped with it is yeah, you have to go in and just say, I know nothing. Please baby me with this. Yeah.

Alexis 8:11

But honestly, I think you're not giving yourself enough credit because like, yes, it's wonderful. You've had fantastic mentors. That's amazing. But it takes a really like strong person to admit, to be like, I don't know, something. Because I think that's really nervous when you're in something new. So testament to you that you walked in and you were like, yep. Don't know it all. Like, teach me everything and like, please, please, like teach me how to use this. That's, that's amazing.

Patricia 8:39

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. You just, I almost like, I need like a few people just witnessing me using this very dangerous tool so I don't hurt myself or somebody else for the first few times. And then, yeah, once you get the hang, it's just, it is, it is very intimidating. but once you use it a few times and you have people around you that are supportive, oh, then it's, you know,

Alexis 8:59

It feels fine. It's crazy. It's old hat. And I'm, I'm guessing like when you do like master that, especially cuz you've come in with like kind of nothing and then you become masters. How good does that feel? Like, are you just like completely obsessed with learning more things? Like, addicted to it?

Patricia 9:16

Yes. I'm the kind of person, where I want to know everything. I love learning, but I also don't like if someone asks me to do something or if someone has a question. I don't like sing. I don't know how or I don't know. So yeah, I'm, anything that I learn or I, you just naturally kind of like, let's say a week or two goes by and you notice that this one saw that you used that was kind of heavy before, that you weren't really confident with. Yeah. You're realizing that it's really easy now. And now you can pick it up with no, no problem. Yeah. You know, like those kinds of moments of realizations, like they're so, like positive and gratifying, if that's even a word. Gratifying. Mm-hmm. Gratification, gratify.

Alexis 9:57

It's, I think it is a word and it's not, I dunno. It is now. Yeah.

Patricia 10:02

But yeah, no, it feels so good when things that were so uncomfortable become really comfortable for you. It kind of just hires that confidence, cuz that's mostly what the issue is, is just having the confidence, with all these new things that you've never done before.

Alexis 10:15

Right. Totally. And it's like, it's new things that you haven't done before too, but it's also, again, like what we went to at the very, very start of feeling like maybe that this environment wasn't designed for you or you didn't know about it. So there's gonna be a lot of kind of like bias that you have even against your own ability and your own Yeah. What's possible for you. So you have to overcome that too, right? Like it's, it's a layered amount of nerves. It's a layered amount of stress that you have to overcome. And, and that's really beautiful that you were able to kind of do that and to master it like that. That's really freaking cool. I absolutely love that. Thank you. You're welcome. And maybe going from like training and from, learning about it. Could you kind of walk through how you've now used that? Like, what is your day-to-day look like? Like what, what are you responsible for? What does a carpenter do on a day-to-day? What does that look like?

Patricia 11:06

Currently I'm not really doing much of what I did at my pre-apprentice. My pre-apprenticeship was mostly framing and concrete forming. Okay. The job that I was called for within my union is, actually at a plant. So I'm doing scaffolding, which is something Oh, cool. No one touched base on at all. Yeah. During my pre-apprenticeship. So I went in with absolutely no idea. I'd never seen it before. I'd never touched it before. Whoa. So that was kind of a lot at the beginning, but luckily, like, I, I hate to say it, but I've just been so lucky. The crew that I have at the job that I'm at, they've all been doing scaffolding for like a million years and they're all so patient with me and, I know I've learned a lot very quickly and it's only cuz I feel comfortable to learn, you know? so for day to day, it's, you know, early mornings and then, getting to work, it's actually a shutdown that I'm working at. So if anyone doesn't know what that is, okay. It's just gonna plant, temporarily. I think it's as per the Ministry of Labor, they shut down for a certain amount of time just so that everything can be inspected and then anything, anything that needs to be welded, fixed, any of the pipes. You do it then. So they wanna make it as short of a timeline as possible, obviously. Cuz production is their business, right? Yes. Yeah. So they hire exactly. So they hire a whole handful, like I think we had about a thousand workers, wow. That were hired. And we have a specific little tent that we all stayed at that were just for the shutdown. So go to the tent, we get our coveralls and then, we kind of gear up. And then every day is just random jobs that we get of, build a scaffold over here, dismantle one over here, you know, modify one over here. There's a lot of working at heights, which was very nerve wracking for me to begin with. A lot of safety. Ar sorry, fall arrest being worn, and tying off. But, I very quickly kind of got over those fears, but yeah, in the beginning it was, it was really, really nerve

Alexis 12:57

wracking. Oh my goodness. Yeah, cuz like I, that was gonna be my next like follow up question is, could you describe like, what goes into scaffolding? Because my understanding of it is that these huge structures, they weigh a lot. There's like very intricate, a lot of components and then heights. Yes. Like you are fully scaling the entire length of the plant in some aspects, I would assume, right? Yes, yes. Oh my

Patricia 13:20

God. yeah, the, the material is pretty heavy. So I've had to bulk up a little bit. But even that we were talking about earlier, how something in the beginning seems hard. Like even just, I remember my first few days not being able to pick up. You know. One tube. And now I can carry like four on one shoulder, you know, just like seeing, you know, like

Alexis 13:38

Yeah. Seeing you get used to it, that you're like, oh yeah, this is old hat. I got this now. Yeah.

Patricia 13:43

Yeah. And it's like, I think that all a big barrier for women is that we don't think that we're strong enough. I wouldn't even say that it's my strength changed. It's because I had the right mentors that taught me how to pick things up. Yes. And how to carry them properly. So it's a lot easier. So that's important too.

Alexis 14:00

I can't agree more with you. Like, cuz I do think that that's a big barrier, that we think that we're not strong enough. And I remember one time I was coining carrying a core box, which is like around a hundred pounds. And I was struggling and it was like falling and material, it was a mess. And I was like, I just can't, I can't hold this. I'm, I'm not, I'm too weak. And my mentor was like, of course you can't hold it. You're holding it like out of your body like a tray. No one couldn't hold it like that. Like that's just a hundred pounds on your little baby wrist. He was like, put it close to your body, put it on a hip and then you're gonna be fine. And like, sure enough, the next one I picked up, I was like, oh, this is actually like really easy. And he was like, yeah, duh. Come on, keep going. Like it's just like, sometimes it's just that mental block and like learning how to do it from someone that's done it their entire life. Like these, this crew that you're with. Which is wonderful to see. I love that.

Patricia 14:49

Yeah. Yeah. And then I, yeah, I did have one female mentor as well. Even just simple things like hoisting or picking up something to pass. Cuz obviously as a first year, a lot of my job is just passing materials. To the journeymen, but they're pretty high up sometimes, so I gotta kind of hoist it up. So even just the, the manner in which we do that as women is very different than men. Yeah. So even just that, you know, men use like their chest and their arms and their shoulders where we. Have all of our strength mostly in our legs. So it's about like squatting and then pushing it up instead of using all of your back and shoulders. So it's just even things like that.

Alexis 15:24

Yeah, yeah. No, it's, it's true like we're gonna do the same job and we're more than capable to do the same job. It's just probably gonna look a little bit different cuz our body types are looking a little different. But same way that like a short guy and a tall guy would do the same task a little bit different. Like same thing with like any other body type difference is that there's just gonna be, in a physical performing, a physical task is gonna look a little bit different. But that's so cool that you get to do scaffolding and I love that they just threw you into that, that you're like, I was not trained for this man. Like this was not, not signed up for at school with framing. That's really cool.

Patricia 15:59

Yeah. Yeah, no, I definitely did not know what I was getting myself into, but I ended up, I am, I've ended up really, really enjoying it. I don't think it's something that I'll do forever. I don't think that's kind of the sector I'll stick to, but I think in general, in any kind of construction, I think it's kind of good to have a knowledge of scaffolding. So I'm happy, but yeah. Yeah, it was a very, it was a pretty big

Alexis 16:18

shock. I'm sure the first day you were like, oh, but calling your mom on the way home to be like, okay, something weird happened. Like it was very, very different.

Patricia 16:28

Yes. Because with the union, when you get calls for, for a union job, sometimes, like they don't give that much description, like has kind give you a time and a place and a person that you are reporting to. Okay. So I went and had, I. I didn't even realize the scaffolding was a part of carpentry. I didn't even know that, that at that point. Yeah. But I'm glad I stuck

Alexis 16:47

around. Well, I'm happy you learned that. Like it's, it's a foundational thing and I, I love that you got to learn that and like, maybe this goes to our next one of like the union and that's crazy that it was just a blind that you don't really get that much info in some jobs. Yeah. But like, you're currently, right now you're working through your first year apprenticeship, so congratulations. It's a, it's a huge thing. Thank you. Could you kind of explain how apprenticeship works, like what goes into it and then how the education works? Cuz it's through local 27, is that correct?

Patricia 17:17

Yes. Yes. So, with the apprenticeship, within local 27, so with most apprenticeships, you work a certain amount of hours and then once you've reached those hours, then you go to do like a two month chunk of schooling. Okay. And then you work, and then, and then once that's finished, you're technically on your second year. Okay. Amazing. The good, yeah, the good thing about the local 27 is that, you can kind of, you don't have to do them in the, that kind of order. So if I wanted to go to school and do all of my schooling in one big block, I can do that right now and then Okay. Get all my hours after. So it takes about three years, three to four years to get your journey journeyman, license or certification. The thing with carpentry though, I know with plumbing and I think with electrical, and I think there's one more, is that you have to be a journeyman to do any kind of work. Okay. With carpentry, you don't have to be, I think you should be. I mean, if you're building homes, I think that that should be Yes. I

Alexis 18:11

think I agree as well. I think you do need to have that professional registration. I would feel a lot better if someone right is legit building my house, other than some guy be like, yeah, you know what? I only did for the first year. It's fine. Don't worry about it. Like, I would, I wouldn't feel that comfortable. I, I agree with the journeyman. I like that. Yeah.

Patricia 18:29

But, so then, yeah, and so whenever you're out of work, you put yourself in what's called a Mix 2020 list. Okay. So it's just a, it's just a call list. So whenever anyone is looking, they might, someone, an employer can call the union and just say, you know, I'm looking for a first year. Oh wow. That has experience in X, Y, and Z. And then just, I know it's all like a computer system, like auto-generated kind of thing. They'll just kind of pluck out the first years that have that, and then they just kind of start down a list of, of calling and it's just an automated message and you can accept the job or, reject the job. So, oh, a lot of times it's just kind of sitting waiting for calls, which is, yeah.

Alexis 19:05

Yeah, I can see that having kind of like a, a negative side to it. That's, it's really cool. No, thank you for explaining it because I like it on multiple ways. I love that answer that I didn't realize you didn't have to go down a certain timeline with apprenticeship. I thought that you had to do like maybe school first and then your hours, but I love that you can kind of make your own adventure and like make it up to your own schedule and what works best for you. I think that's super flexible and like, opens up the door for everyone to, to enter into this field, right? Like anyone can do it because you can customize your schedule. So I love that. On the call list, when they do that 2020, are you set down for a certain specialty or are you kind of all types of carpentry and you know, you don't know what you're gonna end up doing.

Patricia 19:50

When you start, you're pretty much like all different types of carpentry. It, it all really depends on what the employer is looking for. Okay. So if they check off that they want scaffolding experience, prior to this job, I didn't have any. Yeah. So that's not checked off on my profile. So like that system would just automatically just not consider me. I wouldn't be someone that was called. Okay. So if someone is just in general looking for just like a, like a laborer or like a helper, I'm sure that they would kind of leave everything open and then it would be the first years with no experience. That's why your first year is difficult because not only do you kind of not have a lot of those things checked off they could be looking for. Yeah. But what I've really quickly learned is that it is about like all who you, it's about who you know. So a lot of places they don't really use the mix 2020, they just know people that know other people and then they can recommend people and they hire in that regard. So that's why first years kind of have like a little bit of difficulty cuz we're still k kind of getting our foot through the door. You know, it's all about networking, so Totally. It's really

Alexis 20:51

important. Yeah. Yeah. Net networking and also probably taking every single job. Like, it's wonderful that you had that mindset when someone was like, Hey, you're scaffolding. Instead of being like, no, no, no, I don't know what I'm doing to be like, yeah, okay, I'll learn. Like, yeah, I might as throw me a new skill. Yeah, exactly. Like I think that's kind of your first year is just saying yes to everything. Networking. You mentioned a couple words that I, I don't really know for. Could you kind of explain the different titles? Like do you go from first year and then like a laborer and then a journeyman once you've completed your four years? I know that there's also like my, my sister for. Welding. She became a, a red seal welder this, this year and we gave her a huge party because it was like, oh yeah, it was a freaking grind to get there. Like, do you have to do Red Seals? Yeah. That's

Patricia 21:35

amazing. Yeah. We, you don't have to. Okay. I mean, you can do pretty work. Pretty much work. Anywhere as a journeyman, it's just the red seal, just kind of like solidifies. Okay. How much you get paid throughout Canada, so, oh, you know, your apprenticeship and becoming a journeyman is kind of, is, is within Ontario, it's with Ontario's kind of jurisdiction. So, you know, I could have my journeyman here and kind of get paid a certain amount, but if I chose to move to Alberta, that, that's a whole different type of apprenticeship they do out there. So I not, I may not be accepted as a journeyman over there. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah, so the Red Seal is a lot more deros and, and that way if you travel throughout Canada or work anymore throughout Canada, like you, you'll be seen as Red Seal. So, okay, I understand. Thank you for such.

Alexis 22:25

Yeah, thank you for explaining it. Because I didn't, I didn't know what it was and I was like, maybe that's just a BC thing that like, that's what journeymen are called in BC, that they're called Red Seal. I didn't realize it was separate. So that's kind of a different thing though, that you almost have to go to that like national registration. It's weird that when you go to Alberta, that's honestly kind of a shame that you might not be recognized as a journeyman. That's upsetting.

Patricia 22:49

So it's always worth doing a like, like when I get my journeyman status, the next step for me is definitely becoming a red seal. Like there's you not, you've got nothing to lose, right? Yeah. And even here in Ontario, there is quite a difference in responsibility and pay jump between a journeyman and a red seal. So, okay. So that's definitely worth it.

Alexis 23:07

That's wonderful. I, I agree. Okay. And thank you for explaining kind of like the way that you walk through of like apprenticeship to then journeyman, which is amazing. And then the red seal that you can get. And I'll probably congrats to Andrea now that I actually know what that means a little bit more.

Patricia 23:23

It's pretty, it pretty much means like, you know it all and the whole country knows, you know it all, like you're good. Like we can Okay. Give her any project and she'll be just fine. That's pretty much what it means.

Alexis 23:35

Okay. Very cool. She, I know she was very stressed. It was a lot of stress that went into it. She, I don't think I saw her for like two months. All she did was like, read and and practice TIG welding outside of my parents' house and they were like, ah, this is ridiculous. Oh my goodness. To kind of go to your apprenticeship and like to, you're learning all these new skills I know like. In trades, there's multiple specialties, like in anything STEM trades, there's specialties. Within specialties. Within specialties. I know that there's like framing form work and finishing. Do you have a favorite specialty? Do you have maybe like a favorite thing that you love to do in carpentry? What's something that you get like really nerded out about?

Patricia 24:20

I mean, I, I wanna try everything. Okay. I love it. Yes, because I think that I like framing. I think I do because that's what I did in my pre-apprentice. It was mostly framing. But, you know, like I could have, like, I tried scaffolding. I like it. I wouldn't mind doing it. I don't think it's something I'll do forever or something I'll specialize in. But, you know, I could try form work and like, love it so much more than framing. So I'm kind of at this point, what I do when I, what I, I envision is framing houses. Like, I just think that is the coolest thing. So I'm hopeful that I'll get an opportunity soon to really start doing that within a company. But it's kind of all open the air. It could be any, any, any of them.

Alexis 25:04

I love that attitude of being like, I don't know yet, man. I like them all. Like,

Patricia 25:09

like it's all appealing. I love being outside and I love working with my hands. I love using power tools. For me, it's, it's the, the satisfaction of seeing something be nothing and then be something and knowing that I was a part of it and, you know, all aspects of pretty much any trade. You get that, so yeah. Oh, totally.

Alexis 25:29

Like to see something like go from absolutely nothing to then build. Like I think that what trades or what hands on work really gives you is like, is pride because you're like, oh yeah, I made that. Like you see that screw, I put that in. You see that frame? Yeah. That was me. Like, see that piece of wood that got hauled up all those stairs I did that. It was terrible. Yeah. But it was me. Like it has that kinda ownership to it, which I think is so beautiful. And, and I, I love that you kind of love all aspects of it and, and who knows where you're gonna end up for kind of tools or power tools. Do you have a favorite nerd out power tool or technique that you're like, give me like a, a nice rotary saw all day, or give me a sander. Like, what, what, what do you like?

Patricia 26:15

It's probably a tie between, a circular saw. And, probably a nail gun.

Alexis 26:23

Oh, you're hardcore.

Patricia 26:25

You never feel as powerful as you are with a nail gun. I'm telling you. That's got a lot of torque. And a lot of them are actually a lot lighter than you would expect. So, and just how quickly you can get things done with a nail gun. You just kind of feel like a badass.

Alexis 26:41

That's true. I, you know what? I haven't felt like a badass, but I've used a nail gun. I felt reckless and out of control. But it's, it's probably cause I don't have the training. Like someone was like, can you frame this? And I was like, okay. They just gave me it. I felt like I was gonna hurt somebody. I was like, this is very powerful.

Patricia 27:03

Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of power behind those and yes, it's very easy to hurt someone, so you have to be very careful. But it does feel good to successfully just. You know, use it. That's probably

Alexis 27:14

my favorite. Yeah, I love that. I love that answer cuz it also gives you speed. Like you can go through a framing project really quickly with a nail guy. Yeah. Like it, you can run over the house and build an entire house in a day, I'm sure.

Patricia 27:25

Yes, totally.

Alexis 27:27

Completely the entire house in one day. For sure. 100%.

Patricia 27:32

Yeah. If you're doing PeaceWorks, then that would be great.

Alexis 27:38

And I probably, this answer will probably be so many different things because I feel like this has been a, a standard throughout this interview is that you just love all things carpentry, which is just so infectious and so amazing. But what if you can choose one, maybe choose a couple. If there's not just one. What's your favorite part of your job? Is it being outside? Is it fixing something? And then maybe what's something that is a least favorite, something that's a little bit challenging about your job.

Patricia 28:05

I would probably, my favorite is definitely, I mean, yes, working outside is a huge thing. And I think that right now I still have like the rose colored glasses. Everyone that I work with is like, oh, like, you know, you're outside all day. Are you sure this is something that you wanna do? Like outside in the cold and the heat? Yeah. And I'm like, I've been in an office for 10 years. I love being outside. You know, ask me in five years, I might hate it, you know? Yeah. I'm still relatively new. Definitely what we were talking about earlier is just seeing the beginning and the end of a project and just knowing that you were a part of it. That kind of self-satisfaction that you get. You know, even, the job I'm at now with the scaffolding, you know, we'll build a scaffold and then two days later we'll be walking around that same area in the plant and I'll see the welders up there welding and knowing that like they're able to do their job right now. Because we built that scaffold. So like, even just small things like that Yeah. Gives me a lot of pride. Which is my favorite. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I love working within a team as well. You know, office work is very like individual based, just you in front of your computer doing whatever you need to do. I love that as well. Even just like site banter, you know, like that's stuff just kind of, it's, it's, it's nice. Yeah,

Alexis 29:16

totally. Like it's, it's crazy and like you get to see the impact that your work has on other people and you get to see, because that you went in and you built that scaffold. Tim, your buddy that you're gonna razz at lunch was able to do his job and you're gonna make fun of him. Well, you have your little break and your smoker, but like, you got to be kind of part of his day. It's a very team centered industry and it, it just does feel very rewarding because you probably also get really close to your crew, I'm guessing.

Patricia 29:44

Yes, yes. Yeah. Very close. Yeah. I mean, Since it is a shut down the hours or cuz they just wanna get it done as fast as possible or crazy. We work, six 10. So six days a week. 10 hours a day. Yep. And then, now that we're near the end, it's seven 12, so seven days a week, 12 hours a day.

Alexis 30:01

Oh

Patricia 30:01

goodness. Yeah. So we spend a lot of time together.

Alexis 30:04

Yeah. So, oh my goodness. That's a very, very long day. And maybe that's the challenge is just like long, do you get time off after, are you like any rotational or no?

Patricia 30:15

No because the contract in itself is just, it's about a month cuz they want us in and out. So it's a short contract. I know that there's a lot of scaffolders that just, they, they chase shutdowns for that reason cuz they make so much money for working so many hours that they'll do just three or four shutdowns a year and like they're good financially.

Alexis 30:35

Oh, that's really nice.

Patricia 30:36

And then that's pretty much so they'll travel through Canada. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, but yeah, no, that's good. I would say anything that I don't like about it, I would probably say, well, actually it's a recent experience that I had Is just being, it's just a struggle that we have as being women in trades. You know, I do feel like, I'm a very positive, energetic, smiley person. And I've been told multiple times at my job that I smile too much and that I'm too happy, you know, which I feel like a lot of women say that they were told to smile, like, why don't you smile more? Yeah. I, I'm told that I smile too much. And I think that it's seen as like a sign of like ignorance or like dim wittedness. But there's that, and then like, like even just. Just like small amounts of, harassment. Like people like asking me for my phone number, and if I say no, then they'll continue to hound me. And I'm still in that phase of just trying to be a people pleaser and not trying to rock the boat. And I think that if I could have gone back in time, I probably would've said something a bit more stern. Yeah. But I just responded like that. I'm like, no. And I'm like, walk away, you know?

Alexis 31:45

Yeah. I know. Yeah. And I, I feel you, and I'm so sorry that you went through this. I felt I went through the same thing when I first started in mining, and I also got the same comments of being like, you're too happy and you're too smiley. And you're like, one, why is that a bad thing? Like, okay, you're Grinch. Like, why should we be miserable at our jobs? Like why is this a negative that we're happy and bubbly and like, why is that also associated with, dimness? And like, if a man was happy and bubbly, they would be called charming and like have leadership qualities. Why is this only a negative when it's assigned to me that it's a lack of intelligence? Like it's just, it's just pure bias. So I'm sorry that you went through that and. The thing with the harassment and the hounding is like you answered completely fine. Cuz there's really no answer that you could give in that situation to really deal with that person. Like that person is just not a good person because they're sexually harassing somebody at work. You know what I mean? Like if you had given a a stern reaction, I wish it could have been a different rate, different reality, but he probably would've done the same thing. He probably would've kept on hounding you. And I don't know if that's good advice, but it helped me when I would look back and be like, oh, I wish you would've been like stronger or have done something different to be like, well yeah. So I really think that would've had an impact. Like maybe, maybe not, but I just wouldn't beat yourself up about it to be like, okay, I was too big of a people pleaser too. It's a scary like five second decision that you have of 30 seconds that someone comes up and asks you like you don't know how you're gonna react cuz like it's just if you have no time, right. Yeah. I won't beat yourself up.

Patricia 33:18

Yeah. Well, thank you. Yeah. It's like you don't, you don't have time, but you also don't want, cuz I, you still, especially when you're new with the industry, you still wanna be liked. Yeah. And then it's also, you know, since everything is who, you know in word of mouth, if I make a big deal about this Yeah. Will I be seen as difficult or hard to work with? Or someone who can't take a joke. Yeah. Or you know, one of those women that reports everyth everything. Like, you know what I mean? There's like, there is that kind of dark cloud. You don't wanna be seen as emotional, you know, which is ridiculous cuz it's not emotional. It's a fair way to react to something like that. But you worry all those things kind of like, I remember like thinking all of those things in like the span about five seconds before I said anything back to him. You know what I mean? It's kind of conditioned into our brain, so

Alexis 34:07

Totally. And I, and I think it's so hard to get out of that, but it's also, I don't think I'm out of that. Like, I think it's unfortunately just kind of this. Terrible thing that we get, we have to deal with in this industry or these type of environments. And I remember having those same worries whenever it would happen to me like that I would be sexually harassed or harassed in general, that I would be be like, okay, don't make a stink. Cuz mine's the same way. It's really much every anyone who you know. Right? It's always like friends of friends. So it's all about networking and building that connection early on so you don't wanna make a state. Yeah. And then I also kind of thought that like I had to withstand a certain amount of harassment to prove that I was tough enough for that space. Yes. You know what I mean? And that's a ridiculous sentiment. But I thought that for years that I was like, okay, you not saying anything is proving that you are a good geologist and proving that you are tough enough for this environment. And it's just, it's a weird mentality. I think it doesn't happen in other industries and it's just a very. Unfortunate thing, I, I don't know how to solve it. I, I wish I did, but it's Yeah. Or what to do, but I, I'm so sorry that you went through that

Patricia 35:15

as well. Brutal. Oh, no, no, no. I'm sorry that you had to go through it. I mean, I think at any point any female that's in our industry is, goes through it at least, at least once, but if not, it's pretty constant. But yeah, you're right. It is kind of like that pressure that, you know, if I kind of, I don't wanna say it like this, but like cry wolf every time, then I'm just seen as someone who can't handle mm-hmm. That area of the trades, you know? Mm-hmm. Which is, you know, it shouldn't be that way, but No.

Alexis 35:46

Yeah, and hopefully it's changing. I do think that like the one good, if there is a silver, if there is something good about this, if it, if you can make a good out of this situation is the silver lining of it is that, like you said, almost every single woman has gone through it, but you have a bunch of kind of allies and mentors and people that you can talk to to, to talk through it. But I also think that you have a community that has your back and I think as that community gets stronger and stronger in trades in stem, which it is, there's more women joining it, women are telling their stories being louder with their male counterparts and male mentors. Eventually I think the culture will change and I do think that like having these conversations and talking with your girlfriends and talking with your guy friends in at a site or at work does do a lot of impact. I think that could be the only silver lining I can see is the amount of people talking about it. Hopefully it'll change something right.

Patricia 36:41

Yeah. Yeah. I think that once there is a point where, you know, I, I mean, I would love to see 50 50 Yeah. Male and female, you know, that's the goal. That's kind of like what I see for the future, if that will happen. I hope so. But I think that even if that is the case, I think that, you know, there won't be this struggle of power where someone thinks that they can do that because Yeah. There's, you know, cause it's 50 50, like it's, yeah. It's not like, there's one or two women on the crew and a whole handful of dudes, you know what I mean? Totally. They know they have that support and there's gonna be more supervisors, informants that are women as well. So even just having that, having support from your boss, you know, so I think I, it is changing. So,

Alexis 37:24

Yeah, I agree. I, I, I agree and I love that future and I hope it's a 50 50. I really do. That's the future that I want to, so I absolutely love that. Thank you for sharing this. Thank you for answering that. That was a wonderful answer. And I, I think it's very powerful for people listening because I know that they have also probably gone through the same thing. So, I just appreciate that a lot and maybe going to something a little bit different, but equally as powerful but in a different way is, I know right now that you're working with Habitat Hamilton. Yes. Which is this really cool, wonderful organization. Could you kind of describe, the experience, what you guys are doing, and then the importance of these type of like, community initiatives in construction? Cuz they're pretty, like the impact to community is insane. Like it's so sick.

Patricia 38:10

Yes, of course. Yeah. No, when I was doing my pre-apprenticeship, my mentor slash one of my teachers, she kind of mentioned to me, you know, cause I was thinking like, oh, I have no experience, you know? A lot of, cuz I was the only female that graduated from my pre-apprenticeship. Oh wow.

Alexis 38:25

Okay. Yes. Oh my

Patricia 38:27

goodness. Them. So, even just certain things like, you know, like even I feel like men are brought up that they've, like we were saying earlier, like touched a power tool before or maybe they've done, they did, they did like summer work with their dad on the, you know what I mean? Yes. But I had nothing, I only had office work on my resume and she suggested doing volunteering for Habitat for Humanity. So I was like, oh yeah, let's do that. No, it's been amazing. Amazing. So right now we have two projects on the go. We have a new build, which is a five townhouse building. Wow. That's big. Yeah. That's awesome. Yes. Yeah. So that's been really fun cause that's been a lot of framing, which I'm back to your love. So learning. I love it. And then there's, another one which is also really awesome. So it's, the city housing of Hamilton. So it's, we're just kind of going in in the city housing area and just renovating the townhouses there. A lot of them are in really, really rough shape. So just kind of renovating them so that a new family can kind of move into a nice fresh, clean space. Which has been really nice. So it's this trim painting flooring. Just kind of gives them a little bit of a refresher so it kind of feels more like home. A lot of them have kind of been battered up pretty, pretty decently. Yeah. And the importance, I mean, It's tough. I feel like it goes without saying. It just feels good. To kind of give your time. And I mean, habitats for, like Habitat for Humanities are all over the place. So if anyone's listening and you're curious, just look up your area and just put in Habitat for Humanity, there will be something. They're always looking for people. You don't need any experience at all. You know, there's people that showed up that have never held a hammer, never held a paintbrush. Anyone that's there, is there to mentor you and show you what to do. There's no pressure on time or like, no one's like, hurry up or like, you're doing that wrong. You know, like it's, it's kind of like a very like nice calm inclusive space where you can just kind of like, help, help them out. And then it just, it feels good. And you meet amazing people. I've met amazing people that I've, that I still talk to on the daily. So, no, it's, it's a really positive

Alexis 40:29

experience. Oh my goodness. It sounds so beautiful. Like it's, I, I love what the program does, habitat for Humanity, obviously, and then how it has different, chapters all throughout Canada and all throughout North America, and just the amount of impact that they bring to a community and giving someone like decency in their living conditions, like fixing something up and making it like a nice home and affordable is just, it's, it's so wonderful to see. But I also love on a, a training aspect and like that if you're a woman in trades and maybe you don't have that experience because you weren't brought up with it, it's a such a wonderful way to learn, to get mentorship, to get connections. It's a really safe space to learn, and you get to do a big impact to your community. It's like wins across the board that's like, yeah, there's no, there's no

Patricia 41:15

losing. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. It's

Alexis 41:17

awesome. No, that's so cool. And I, excuse me. I love those two projects that you're working on and that you get to, to work into. Into this community. I just think it's so beautiful and kudos for you to, to give back and especially if you're a skilled trades, right? Like you probably walk on site and they're like, thank God we got a professional, right? Like they're like, we're probably so happy for all of our members to come in and join us. But like it's nice to have another mentor show up and someone that who knows how to, how to use tools. And I bet you that feels really good to show maybe like other men or young women who are there to be like, yeah, I know how to use a power tool. I can teach you. And to now be a mentor to

Patricia 41:59

someone else. A hundred percent, it definitely feels like paying it forward, which I didn't think I would be able to do this early on in my trades journey. So, Like, I guess you said it's a go win, win win, win, win, win, win, win

Alexis 42:14

like 10 times, win, win, win. I agree. Like it, it just is so like that's, that's so freaking cool. And I like the paying it forward and the mentorship and, and speaking of another community initiative that you're part of, and this is meeting your heroes. These are the people that got you into carpentry, which is fricking insane. I love that Full circle moment. This is, women in Sight and you're an active member. Could you kind of speak to what Women on Site is, the importance of that, like community and mentorship and representation of women in trades, why it's so important in construction?

Patricia 42:48

So it is, an organization or, it's a bunch of us women that organize, meetups for anyone. Who's interested in, they don't even have to be a part of trades yet. Even if you're just interested in it and you wanna just talk to some people that, that are working within it. It's just like a safe space, for everyone to come together and, you know, talk about our experiences. It's great for networking. You know, I've, gotten some jobs from ladies that I had met from there. Awesome. You know, like even just Yeah. You know, everyone speaks open and honest about their experiences, which is good to know. Like, I feel like I would've been a lot less prepared for getting into especially, union work. If I hadn't had those talks and those mentors to kind of explain and kind of break down how, how it really was gonna be. You know what I mean? Yeah. It just, it's, it's, it's amazing and everyone is always there. We all support each other at all times and our group just keeps growing and growing and growing and growing and it's so, so cool to see. But yes. Yeah. It's just, it's just kind of, it just feels good to know that you have a group of women, you know, that if you have a bad day, it's like mm-hmm. Just to know that we all have, we, we've all had them. Like you're never alone. And I think that when you're working within the trades, you feel alone as a female. A lot. Yeah. A lot. A lot. So it's just, it's just, yeah, it's nice to, to have like that community of women. So it's just organizing meetups where we can all do something fun together and bond and share stories and. Yeah, I think it's very important. I don't think I'd be as confident as I am now if I didn't have them.

Alexis 44:27

So no, what an amazing thing. And like I'm just, I've been a fan girl of women on site and like lurking them from bc. Just be like, I hope they come here. I hope that they have a chapter here soon. Like, or just being like, I wish I was in Ontario. Like, I would like to go to the summer, however that's upcoming. Like, you know what I mean? Like that sounds, that sounds really nice. Like it's such a cool organization and I just love what they, they and what you guys have built, the community has built. I think it's so important. And I think you touched on something really important with saying sometimes women in trades feel like isolated and feel alone. And I think even within this interview you've mentioned you were the only woman when you did your pre-apprenticeship. Like that is alone and that is isolating if you just don't have other people with you. I know when I started one of my jobs I was four out of 120. And I was one of the four, you know what I mean? There was just three others that that was it. And if we were all on shifts, you're like, well, I'm only gonna see one other person that's a woman, in this site. So it just, it does really, really have a big impact to have a group of people there and to, to interact with. And I just think that's so beautiful that you get to have that community. You get to do something fun. I love that. I think that's a break from kind of like the roughness sometimes of our trade. And I, I love too that, you're able to have those mentors and to talk with them. I think that's so cool. That's

Patricia 45:51

awesome. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's absolutely amazing. And, yeah, they planned like the funnest, the funnest meetups for us, so it's amazing.

Alexis 46:02

Aw, that's so cool. Well, hopefully one time if I'm in Ontario, I would love to pop in and, and join. I think it's really cool that it's also open for people not in trades and not in construction. I think that's, that's a wonderful thing as well.

Patricia 46:14

Yeah, I mean I know that there's always plans of expanding. I know they wanna go across Canada and you know, possibly even into the US so there could be something opening up in BC at some point.

Alexis 46:25

Well, I'll come the first one that they have in bc. I will make it, I will, I will come to their first event. I think that's, that's so beautiful and I love that you found that community and it's just really cool that they were the people that kind of inspired you to get into this field and now they get to be your friends and yeah, maybe it's that, maybe it's the community for this next question, but, what is something that's inspiring you right now? What's, like from personal experience, I know that like these environments can kind of be a little bit hard. What's something that inspiring you and that like, gets you to keep going to go through it?

Patricia 47:00

You know, it's kind of like the same answer for what got me in it in the first place. It's just, It's Instagram, it's, you know, I feel like, now I'm kind of part of like this algorithm, so now I'm just, I have these women that are in trades or especially in carpentry, always popping up and I finding all these new accounts and I just feel like it just, it's always just kind of pushing me and showing me that I can do more and I can, you know, I think that's always been the inspiration. It's just seeing these other women being doing these crazy things. You know, there's one female carpenter that I follow on Instagram and just seeing like the homes that she frames cool. Like, it's insane. Yeah. Like I could watch her videos all day and I think that's what kind of pushes me. I don't really post as much as other tradeswomen, mostly because I haven't really had a job worth. I can have a camera out. Yeah. Outta

Alexis 47:50

scaffold. Like hanging above a plant. No. You don't want a camera?

Patricia 47:54

No, absolutely not. No. And I'm working at like a pretty big plant that's, you know, they don't want any other stuff being, you know what I mean? Posted. Yeah. but that's why I do post what I, what I can is because like even if one female comes across my profile and they resonate with something And they, it makes them feel bold enough to. To take a leap of faith and go for it, then like, that's more than enough for me. So, oh, just, yeah, because that's what it was for me. Yeah. So like, and I'm sure the, these people that I've found on Instagram probably have no idea that they had completely changed my life overnight. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yes. Yeah.

Alexis 48:31

You know, like, I, I love that and I love that idea. Again, it's like a full circle of, of paying it forward. But I also love, like stalking people on Instagram and being like, I don't know if you know that this Parasocial relationship exists, but like, I'm being a cheerleader here for women on site from Vancouver. You know what I mean? Or cheerleader to like any woman in trades. I get a lot of welding videos from my sister cuz she sends me a lot of them. Like any other welder, that pops up on my page, I'm like, oh, that's gonna be Andrea one day. Or like, that could be Andrea one day. And like, that's just extremely powerful to see and. If you don't have that community in real life, it's really easy to have that community on social and like to have the power of social media kind of be used in a good way. Because I think a lot of social media is not very, not very nice, but this is like one aspect mm-hmm. Where it can be used for good, right? That's pretty beautiful. And hopefully in maybe a couple months you're gonna get a message from somebody to be like, Hey, I saw your video and now I'm a carpenter. Or, I met you at Habitat Humanity in Hu Humanity. Hamilton, my words are getting all mixed up, but like now I'm a carpenter as well. Like, you passed me, nail gun and I felt wild and reckless, and then I felt powerful. And now this is it, right? Like, who knows? Yeah.

Patricia 49:48

Yeah. Exactly.

Alexis 49:50

Yep. And then Patricia, just cuz I don't wanna take up too much of your time, the last question is there any kinda misconceptions, I, I'm sure there's loads about being a woman in trades and anything that you kind of wanna clear up and, clear up that misconception and maybe offer some advice for, for young ladies just starting up right now?

Patricia 50:10

I would say, it's okay to not know anything. It's okay. I still struggle with that. I feel as though if I don't know something then like I'm stupid. Or that something isn't for me. Like I automatically kind of jumped to that conclusion. I know it's having patience with yourself, to not know the answer. Having patience with yourself to not get it right the first time. I think that that's, I don't think that's a misconception. Sorry. I feel like that's not even really answering the question. No,

Alexis 50:43

it's okay. You don't have to answer the question. I think it's brilliant advice. I, I really do.

Patricia 50:49

I think that that's, you know, like, don't be too hard on yourself to pick things up super, super quick. You know, don't compare yourself to someone that's been doing it for even six months if you've only been doing it for a month. You know, just being able to, you know, I think there's pressure of, you know, being a fast learner and always be moving and always be doing something, but I think it's also important to watch and to learn. And to, Yeah, just don't be so hard on yourself, cuz I definitely was, I still am. Yeah. And, and it's something that I'm trying to battle through is to just be patient, take a breath and be like, I don't need to know everything right now.

Alexis 51:27

Yeah. It's okay that I'm just learning. It's okay. That like my apprentice or journeyman or Red Seal Carpenter who's teaching me has been doing this for 25 years. It's okay that I'm just learning. I've been doing this for one. You know what I mean? I think Yes, it's good advice.

Patricia 51:44

I think that that's important and I guess big misconception is, that women are, aren't strong enough, are smart enough. I think that's, I mean, that's a very general statement that I think that anyone could agree on, but that was my big thing. I thought there's no way I would be able to lift this or move that, or no way I would be able to measure this properly or, you know, pick up a. A tool that, I don't know, I don't know how heavy it is, you know? Yeah. But, you know, we're, we're, we're just as strong. So it's just, it's a misconception, but I think it's kind of been like, drilled into our brains. Right. So it's just kind of working away from that thought and that idea. And if something is too heavy, it's okay to ask for help if you're carrying something or if something is too heavy, ask someone, am I, am I carrying this right? Yeah. That's how I learned how to pick up stuff at my current job, is just, you know, I realized that I kind of even just like looked goofy holding them the way that I was holding them.

Alexis 52:40

Yeah.

Patricia 52:40

Yeah. I, like anyone that was passing me was like, okay, so that's obviously a first year. Like what are they doing? You know? And not everyone is gonna stop you and be a mentor and be like, Hey, maybe you should try holding it like this. Sometimes you have to kind of come out and ask and be like, I feel like I look goofy right now holding this. Like, can, am I doing this right? You know? So it's just not being afraid to, to admit your ignorance on a lot of things and to be patient with yourself during that learning process.

Alexis 53:07

I think those are like beautiful answers. Couldn't have said it better myself. Like that. Absolutely gorgeous. I think I love the idea of being open to learn, asking help, being okay that you don't know everything, and like I do think that that fear of being like, oh, I don't know everything. I think that's based on a misconception of. That this space doesn't really isn't designed for you. Because I think sometimes when you talk about like this space being isolating and being the only woman there, I think you then have the mindset that you're like, I represent all women and any mistake that I make represents all of us. It becomes this like really big terrible thing that you have to have perfection at all sta at all places, even though you haven't even learned those skills yet. And I, I know that's something that I struggled with, that I wanted to be a senior geologist when I didn't even really understand what a rock was yet. Right. And I was like, if I don't get this answer correct, then all women are failed. Like, you know what I mean? Like it's, it's like this big burden on you and it's this like idea of this misconception and I, and I think just allowing yourself to be a normal person in this industry and not having to represent a full community and having just to learn yourself, right, like be okay with learning in the steps of processes of learning and just not feeling like you have to know everything and. You have to be perfect.

Patricia 54:28

Yes. And I do think that us as women, I think that we kind of, I wouldn't say we have to work harder, but I think that we have a lot more to prove. Because there's already kind of an idea of what we would be like on site or the things that we may not be able to do. So, you know, trying to pick up these heavy objects. If I can't pick two of them up. Then all of my male counterparts pick up two. Yeah. And I only pick up one. Then I, I automatically think in their head they're like, well, of course you can only pick up one.

Alexis 54:56

Exactly. Of course. Like it, it's that kind of self-fulfilling property of like misconception and bias. And then you put that like pressure on yourself. And when you can't live up to that pressure, maybe just because you're just starting or your body's a little bit different, then it becomes like you're beating yourself up about it and just realize, don't do that. It's okay. It's okay that you only picked up one. No one cares. They probably didn't even notice, honestly, they're probably thinking about like their next smoke break. Right? Yeah. Or like that, the fact that they have to pee or like that they don't wanna go up 20 flights of stairs. They're probably not even noticing you, but like, it's just getting out of that mindset's hard. It's been drilled into us for a long time. So, again, I think it's, it's wonderful advice, Patricia, and just. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. It was so nice getting to know you. It was so nice chatting. Thank you for coming onto the show. I loved it.

Patricia 55:48

So did I. This is my first, podcast experience and it's been awesome. Thank you so much, Alexis, for, for finding me and offering to do this. It's been, it's been really nice chatting with you. A really, really, really, really nice time chatting with you.

Alexis 56:01

Oh, I appreciate it. No, thank you very much. And if you would like to come onto the show anytime, you just let me know and we can come back on, we can talk about something specific. I would absolutely love that you're invited whenever. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Patricia. I appreciate it, a million times. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you guys for listening and for, for watching us. This is the Smoko podcast. Thank you. We will see you next week. Bye-bye. Thank you again. Bye.