Alexis 0:00

Hello everybody and welcome to the Smoko Podcast. My name is Alexis Armstrong, your host. The Smoko Podcast is the place to celebrate and highlight women, trans women, and non-binary folk working within stem and trade occupation. So please tune in, take a break, join us. We're on smoko, and today we're extremely lucky to be joined by the lovely Brandy Ferentz, who is a refrigeration mechanic, a gas fitter, and an HVAC instructor. She's a mentor for women in skilled trades in HVAC apprentices, as well as starting her own Business Fair Trades Toolbox, which is a female-owned business. It brings 20 years of hands-on experience and it's mission is really to educate skilled trade employers on how to integrate women into their male dominated workforce and to make it a seamless transition for all parties involved, which is just a fantastic organization and institution. So we're gonna talk kind of all things culture. Working within Skill Trades and just thank you so much, Brandy, for coming onto the show.

Brandi 0:58

Oh my God, thank you so much, Alexis. It's fine. I hear you say all that. I'm like, who is that woman?

Alexis 1:03

It's you. Thank you.

Brandi 1:04

That's such a nice intro. Thanks.

Alexis 1:06

You're welcome. Well, it's you. You did it. To start, maybe let's go back to the very, very beginning of, could you describe how you got into this trade? How did you discover being a refrigerator mechanic and gas fitter and what drew you to this, that you're like, yep, that's gonna be my career.

Brandi 1:22

Yeah, I don't think any, little girl lays in bed and dreams of the day that she's gonna be a refrigeration mechanic, although I look to a future where that may actually happen. Instead of having the Barbie condo, they might have a, like a mechanical room I've set up, oh, I would

Alexis 1:38

love that. That was so cute. Yes. I know.

Brandi 1:41

I'm already dreaming it up, but, yeah, so it was like a lot of women today that you'll talk to that are in the skilled trades, or at least women that are, I would say 30 plus. Were, it's a second career for us. I did well in high school. I got pushed into the university pathway, as many of us do. And I grew up in a blue collar family, but that wasn't, ever presented at an option at any level for me. Whether from, guidance counselors, teachers, or family. I did grow very much grow up in the time of, I was born in the seventies, a lot of my good years were the eighties and, early nineties of my formative years, as I say. And yeah, it was looked upon as the lesser profession, right? It was blue collar. Still really carried that stigma as I know it still does today, although we work hard to change that. I really, I did what I was told, like a good daughter should, and then at the end of it all, I handed my parents their very expensive diploma, and I basically took off for a decade. I really found, for me it wasn't, I was like, I didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up. It wasn't for me. I'm very high energy. You'll see that I'm gonna spin in my chair and move around. And I really found like it was almost excruciating to have to sit at a desk. So during a co-op I did for my, post-secondary degree, that was the feedback. We can't find her. She's never in the office. I was brutal in meetings, right? And so I just realized, you know what, it wasn't for me and I wasn't happy. I did need to make money because the other part of that coin is, yeah, oh, you're not gonna go to school. Now you have to fly on your own, right? What better way to make money than just to work in the bars, right? I did that for over just over 13 years. And then I really started getting to think into my early twenties, okay, what do I wanna do? I don't wanna be, a 60 year old, working in a bar that I didn't know. I didn't really feel like there was room for advancement? And I did see a lot of my friends had been moving on in life and, there is that pressure, right? And let's face it, when I was 27, I thought, oh my God, like 30 is gonna be ancient, right? Yes. Completely. Yes. Yeah. As I turned 50 last year and I'm like, I can't believe it. But looking back then, I felt really, old and I had to figure stuff out, but I still didn't know what I wanted to do. But I knew a few things. I knew that I needed a job where I wasn't gonna be replaced by technology at this point. We were in the very early two thousands and I'd seen a lot of people's parents lose their jobs. Factories were closing. Technology was really starting to take over a lot of industries and a lot of jobs were becoming obsolete. The second part of that is I had to still be financially independent. I had been taking care of myself since I was 19, and I really got to say I was fiercely independent would be a good description. I couldn't see myself relying on anyone else to take care of me, and I knew I had to do something where I was gonna be moving. It was really knowing the things I didn't like combined with. The stuff I wanted out of a job. And then it just hit me, I loved hearing about my dad's day when I was young. He had a little work bench downstairs. My dad's a master electrician. Amazing. And I loved playing with all his tools and stuff. And my male friends, they loved their jobs. And obviously I still ran with very much a blue collar crowd. And I loved hearing about their days. Like we'd drive past buildings, they'd be like, yeah, I built that, or I did that. And I was like, how cool is that? The light bulb went on and I thought there wasn't a lot of social media. I don't even know if there was any at that time, but, so I figured women were a huge part of this industry, and I was like, yeah, I'm, this is what I'm gonna do. My goodness. At the time, I wanted goodness to be an electrician like my dad. So that was my turning point of, I guess where it began, of how it all started in a sense. What pushed me off the cliff was I bought a little cabin, because I didn't know I wanted to do something with my money. Responsible. Yes. I bought a house. I still didn't know I was gonna settle. I was very much like a tumbleweed. So I bought this little cabin and it was off the grid. I never used Any tools. Yeah. It was only accessible by boat, so never drove a boat. But you know what, sometimes ignorance is bliss. Yeah. I had no idea what I got myself into, but that really, gave me those aha moments of I can do this, and I wanna do more of this. Now how do I make money doing this? It was trial by fire.

Alexis 5:54

Yeah, completely. That was your big experiment. There's so many cool parts of that story and I'm going through it. One thing that's crazy is the fact that you were from a blue collar family and had friends, family members within the trades, but then still didn't consider that that could be an option for you. That was like almost like a gap of maybe a traditional roles or traditional kind of life path of not realizing that trades was a viable option. It's good that you brought that up of this old stigma that unfortunately I think sometimes is still there with trades, is that it's viewed as a lesser option or it's viewed as not on the same path as university. Where in my mind and hopefully will move there for full culture, is that they're equal and they have equal opportunity and equal level of merit. But because of that, I think you're right. A lot of women in skilled trades that come as a second career in their thirties is when they enter into it. It sounds like you didn't really have any experience being a mechanic beforehand until you bought this cabin off the grid, which is a huge, huge undertaking. I couldn't even imagine. How did you learn to be comfortable with these tools and techniques? How did you get these skills and that you were like, then I can use this, I can be a mechanic. How did that happen?

Brandi 7:06

I think that is was still a developing thing even after I got into the trades. I'd say. I wasn't necessarily comfortable for a long time, even after I was, started my apprenticeship pathway, but I think it was more or less realizing that just because I'd never been given tools when I was young or I didn't grow up in an environment where I was encouraged to use tools that didn't mean that I couldn't learn. I think that was a big moment for me, like as a woman. Prior to that, I would've said, when I first bought the cabin, I did learn. So I obviously had to learn to drive a boat right away. But I remember I went up with the person, who was in my life at that time and I was really fortunate. The older gentleman I bought it from, he helped me out for the first few years. Unfortunately he passed away, but I'll never forget the first time I went over. It was April 29th, 2002. This is how well I remember it. I love it. And, my partner was a tall, bigger person. The gentleman I bought it from, his name was Les. So Les, we have the boat down on the beach, it has to go into the water. And right away, of course, the person I was with, he goes to go get into the boat and jump in the boat unless this tiny little man, he is like, yeah, no, no, Brandy, it's her boat. Brandy has to learn how to do it. And I was just like, Oh, and I didn't even move, like I assumed that they would do it for me, right? Yeah. Cause I'm like, this is the man stuff. And I think for me, even at that time, here's someone from a very much older generation, but yet there was something, I don't know where it came from. I'd known him for quite a few years in the bar, and obviously he saw something in me that I didn't even know was in myself. At that moment when he was like, no, no, Brandy can do it. And he said right away, my partner, he is like, well, she's never done it before. And Les said, well, that doesn't mean she can't do it, that just means she hasn't learned to do it. Oh my goodness. And it really stuck with me. I felt, I get goosebumps right now because Yeah, I remember that first time driving it. And Was it pretty No way. No, it was,

Alexis 9:00

it doesn't have to be. Yeah. This ceiling is backwards

Brandi 9:04

and like I had to pull the pull cord so many times and, but you know what? He sat there patiently and that was really how the journey began as far as me changing my way of thinking because prior to that, I would've called somebody to do stuff for me Or I would've, called one of my male friends that knew how to do it And I think as women sometimes, That just becomes like part of our culture in a sense instead of trying to do it ourselves, we're just used to having people on hand or people we can call and reach out to

Alexis 9:35

Or people that jump in, right? That's part of their kind of socialization and culture as well. They don't even realize what they're doing, but then we accept it automatically. I've had to learn the same thing and I've had wonderful mentors that have been like, no, let Alexis do it. Yes, we know that you can do it, but Alexis has never used this tool before and let her try. It's not gonna be pretty again. Same thing with the boat. Yeah. It's gonna be a mess. And I'm gonna be sitting there with the wrench being like, I have no idea how to do this. But that's fine. It's part of it. That's so beautiful that Les was such a wonderful mentor, especially being an older generation and kind of seeing something in you before you saw it in your yourself I think is a very beautiful thing It's a cool transition of going from being like, yeah, this is such a cool job and I wanna emulate these men in my life cuz they're having such a wonderful job to then doing it.

Brandi 10:20

But it was terrifying. And really though, that was one of the things I learned, that everything can be really scary. And I think that is what puts you off of it initially, but taking it slow, being patient with yourself and knowing that it's okay to make mistakes, it doesn't have to be perfect. And I think for women a lot we're raised to be perfect. There's, the statistic says we don't apply for jobs unless we meet a hundred percent of the qualifications. Where our male counterparts will apply for a job. They meet 60% of the qualifications. But that mentality really rolls out for us for everything we do, right? If I can't do it perfect, I don't wanna even try, right? Cause I don't wanna fail. Using a chainsaw has nothing to do with my gender. It's just me being comfortable with what I'm doing and learning how to do it.

Alexis 11:05

I think there is this draw to perfectionism and I also think that there's a fear of judgment if we're not perfect. We're held to such a standard and I know I've been nervous that if I don't get something perfect, it's not even just a testament to me, it's a testament to my gender. You went from learning HVAC systems to then becoming an instructor and teaching it. And I was wondering if you could speak to that transition from learning to becoming an instructor and then teaching these young women.

Brandi 11:31

I started dabbling in instructing early, like 2015. And my dad's actually an instructor too. And one of the things I loved is that he teaches electrical at, the college in Windsor. I loved seeing that because as you get older, the trades does provide a lot of room for advancement and opportunity After you're licensed and have so many years experience, you now qualify to move up the ladder in certain ways. It was funny when I first, taught for the first time, And by the way, my classes are not gender specific, only the first last couple years have I had any female students. So out of a class of say like 50, I have two women. Wow. That's a record. I never went to School with another female. So for me to see two women in my class sitting side by side, it's just yeah, I got fist bumped here. Yeah. I'm like, yes. Like this is, but I'm to be professional, I'm like, okay, but you guys are good too. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're feel like cool about your crushing classroom? I'm totally cool. Yeah. But I'm dying inside, right. When I first started teaching, actually it was really nerve wracking. It almost felt like I, I was very intimidated by my students. Being a woman, a female instructor for, in a male dominated industry, like when I first started teaching, it was a night school class. So all of these people were licensed tradesmen already, and they were taking a gas fitter course. It's like an extra ticket. So I remember when I started teaching and this guy was like, but you don't even have any experience doing this. And I was like, whoa, whoa. I said, no, no. Not only am I'm a gas fitter wine, which is the highest ticket. I've worked in the industry for X amount of years and I'm still working in the industry on the tools. Teaching for a lot of tradespeople starts out part-time. Which is what still do it as is part-time. So it was really daunting, but the thing I love about it is that now, number one, Even though I think I know my stuff, I learn every day too when I teach because someone has a new question or a new perspective, and I love that. Plus technology changes my equipment that we work on so much and it's just escalated so quickly that we're, we are constantly learning in the industry, which is what makes it exciting, right? Because it's never stale. But I love now that when those, my male students, go back out into the workforce and back out onto job sites, it's not this, anomaly to see a female trades person because they had a female instructor. So I'm already like that much ahead of the game for them and it doesn't seem weird. And for my couple female students, I did have one actually just last year, and she came up to me and was right after orientation day. So we hadn't even started the course yet. And she goes, I was gonna quit. This is the last class I came for orientation. But then I saw you. And when I heard your credentials and you're one of the instructors, I thought, Oh, okay. So I can do this. It's not just for guys, because it's sad to even think in this day and age that, people are still, assigning genders to the jobs? It's not I like to do something with my hands. I'm mechanically inclined or I'm interested in it, but yet that's for a guys to do that, especially in this world of, gender fluidity, it's so bizarre to me that this the skilled trades industry and the culture is still stuck in the stone ages,? And that's really how in the last, two years especially, I've birthed this idea of wanting to run fair trade. I had one guy said, oh, my mom thinks it's super cool. I have a female instructor and I think to myself about his mom and I think, maybe she wanted to do something like this at one time. Those are good moments for me when I make a difference and I feel like a lot of the differences people make in each other's lives, we don't get to see them. I know we're all making a difference every day for each other. Just to make it a little bit more of a more inclusive place and the culture is that much better.

Alexis 15:17

I love that answer. It's so right on so many dimensions. That we have to keep on having this conversation that these jobs are like gendered because we should be moving past this. It seems just completely ridiculous that we still have to have this conversation. But it's really what I think is really cool about this story being an instructor, is the idea of representation that it affects everybody and that it matters to everyone. To have young men come into this industry and realize that they have already had a mentor and already had someone in leadership that looks like you or looks a little bit different than them, that is so impactful, right? And then to see maybe that generation to be like, his mom is gonna be your biggest champion and you have impact in her life, and it's probably cause she wanted to do something different, having that kind of silent impact and affecting other people's lives and. Yeah. That kind of positive change is really beautiful.

Brandi 16:07

It was one of those nice surprises when someone said to me, before what was your goals when you got into the trades and I just wanted to be a licensed journey person. And I said, nothing else beyond that. I just want my red deal. I'll be writing my writing for my license when I turn 40, and I'm like, there, I'm done. I'm just gonna work. I'm gonna retire. Instructing was one of those, was one of the, those things I never saw coming. I wanted to be a teacher, but I didn't know there was other forms of being a teacher. I thought I had to just go and teach in, the school system or the colleges. I didn't realize I could teach the skilled trades.

Alexis 16:39

It's this old mentality of two tree two tiered education of university and book learning versus like practical skill trades is that, of course the education pathway is also gonna be different.

Brandi 16:50

So for our industry in Canada, like 70% of our learning, through apprenticeship is on the tools and 30% is done at the college level, upon completion. That means that like when these kids are coming to take these courses, as an instructor, I deliver a theory portion, but I also have to deliver the practical. So that's where that really intertwines because yeah, we have them in a shop tearing apart equipment, and as such, the instructor has to still be, well-versed in all of it. But it really, for my license, it's equivalent the amount of hours is equivalent to getting your master's. I do tell people that there's three equal pathways post-secondary. We have the college, university or the apprenticeship pathway, and they really are equal if you wanna lay them out in monetary terms, You can make just as good of a living doing what I do as, as well as going to, to the traditional college route or university.

Alexis 17:42

If we could step back from instructing and maybe get more into the nitty gritty of what do you actually do? For someone who's never heard of this trade before and who doesn't really know what it is, could you describe what you do as a refrigeration mechanic and gas better? What does a typical day look like?

Brandi 17:58

That is such a great question. we see a lot of women, our numbers in Canada, they're really high for electricians and plumbers because I think they're very self-explanatory of the field of work, and this is no pun on my appearance, but I used to describe hvac, which might not be pc, but I used to say it's like the redheaded stepchild of the skilled traits. Cause nobody knows. Nobody knows what we do, right? Yeah. They're just like, I don't know. My license name is very convoluted. I'm a three 13 a refrigeration and air conditioning systems mechanic. Which is really just a big fancy term that I do. Heating and cooling And the word refrigeration comes in because in the trades you have to look at cooling in a few different ways. Where we are, like in our space, in our home, it's air conditioning, right? We wanna be comfortable when it's hot outside. But when you think about, for example, shopping at like the big box stores like Costco, when you go into those nice coolers and freezers to get all the goodies out, that's also part of my trade. So basically a typical day, there's a couple different sections. Service is really the meat and potatoes of my industry and that's where I started, my apprenticeship with a company that commercial industrial service work. So as an apprentice you're going out doing a lot of maintenance work. So just like your car. And we have to do maintenance on these pieces of equipment because there's a lot of moving parts and we wanna keep them running, right? So just like an oil change or changing your air filter in your car, we do the same stuff, but with the heating and cooling equipment. And then the other side to that is, is service calls. So that's when stuff breaks down or shit goes sideways. And they need to like, they need you on site, right? Panic. Yeah. Yes. So basically you're rolling in a truck. The hours are insane depending on what type of a company you're with. I know with myself, like when I was on call, it's basically just like a doctor. The phone rings at 3:00 AM you get outta bed, you get in the truck and you go, wow. So that's crazy. So you could be like, climbing up onto a roof somewhere in the black of the night, looking for a piece of equipment that's broken down because it needs to be repaired. Now, obviously some calls are more important than others. If you're talking about working at like a healthcare facility. We've done work, I've done work at the nuclear plants. Wow. Data centers. So you're talking sometimes if equipment goes down, that could mean a lot of loss. Revenue, right? Or hopefully not. But for example, in a healthcare facility, that could mean like the OR is going down? So they couldn't use those rooms if the temperature is not the right temperature. It does sound crazy, and it was, when I first started, I'm like, I don't know if I'm gonna like that, but really I love the rush. There's a bit of a thrill there, right? So I used to make a joke. I'm like, the only one on the road right now is HVAC mechanics and serial killers. There's literally nobody awake right now. That's it. That's the only people that out right now. I ran like that for about 14 years before I took an in-house position, at a local hospital, which is where I'm at now. So the difference there we call them retirement gigs. I work a steady eight to four. Nice. I got a's nice little workbench Nice. Where I can have my breaks. I don't have to eat when I drive anymore. And I have a team of people to help me. When you're by yourself in the service van, it's basically a one woman show. Like I diagnose the problem, I quote the customer, I pick up the parts, I go back and I fix it, and that's it. So there's a couple different faucets of the industry, but really, I would say, at the end of it all, it's a solo gig. Unless you're on a bigger project, then you're, you'll be working as part of a team or you'll have another mechanic or apprentice with you.

Alexis 21:31

That's very cool. I love your answer about HVAC systems because I think sometimes I think Covid did change our mindset about HVAC systems, but I think we don't necessarily instantly think of temperature as being a core facet of infrastructure. Yeah. I think coming from a lab, like not a lot of my experiences in labs, temperature is a main thing,? Like we have to have constantly, not only air temperature in the room, but for our instruments, for within an instrument, the HVAC has to be perfect. There's so many kinda layers of HVAC systems that we need to function

Brandi 22:06

correctly. And the humidity levels, right? Yes. Humidity, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that's all part of what we do. Yeah, it's very

Alexis 22:13

fundamental and I think sometimes people forget about it. I didn't realize how dynamic it was though, or hard. Like it makes sense because it is such an integral part of a lab or a hospital or a nuclear power plant. But I didn't realize on the other end of that you're getting an oh shit, call at 3:00 AM and you have go I didn't realize that you were guys were like on the road so much when you're doing that service industry. I was wondering if you could speak to your favorite niche thing about being an HVAC mechanic. What's your favorite thing about hvac? Something really niche, and then what is a least favorite? And then why favorite, why least favorite.

Brandi 22:48

I got lucky and I think it was probably good because I fell in love, hard and fast with the trade, because of the equipment I was so fortunate to be exposed to early on. So I worked for a big company that was a manufacturer, and one really, niche piece of equipment is, is chillers. I had the, privilege to start my career on like water cooled, centrifugal chillers, and as an apprentice, I did my first couple tear downs, so it's exactly as it sounds. These are giant pieces of equipment that just make cold water cool, that is fed through fan coils and then into their respective areas. First of all, let me just say, when my dad explained HVAC to me about when I was looking for trades, he's oh, you're just gonna work on like quarter inch copper and like the bars? No,

Alexis 23:35

they're like huge. Yeah. So these

Brandi 23:38

machines are like larger than life. And I remember just even first looking at them, but one of the cool things was the first time I worked with any kind of, rigging equipment. So we actually were tearing this one unit down at the hospital. So we bring in this gantry stand, with a trolley on it and a chain fall. And removing a 3,500 pound motor off of this machine Wow. To put it on the ground cuz it was gonna get sent out via a truck to be, have the, windings, re rewound and insulated. I loved it. I loved working on the big stuff. I loved rigging stuff out. And doing. I and then there's a lot of cleaning involved, which I used to joke. I'm like, look guys, I'm doing what God intended. I would try to make like a joke, you know? And they'd be like, okay, Brandy, so big giant monsters machines, right? But things had to be. Ever so clean. And the tolerances for the parts ever so tight. And it just like to take them apart and put them back together and to watch them run, it just totally blew my mind. I know I would never, ever have had the privilege to be exposed to or seen had I not been in the industry. So by far working on that equipment was my favorite. And in fact, the only thing I regret is that I really didn't find the trade early on where I could have had more time there. Unfortunately, for me, the hours just got to be too much at an age where I just wasn't handling it well with some of the other things going on the job. And so that's why I made the move to go in-house. But really, I feel like looking back now after I've had some time to heal, there's so much more I would've wanted out of that. And it's just very cool like that, that's one of those things where not everyone in my world gets to work on that kind of stuff. So by far my favorite.

Alexis 25:21

That's so cool that you did get to work on that. Even maybe if it was short-lived or you would like in hindsight to be like maybe a little bit more time. Yeah. It's just cool that you were able to see a system that big and have that impact and to be able to work on it and put it back together a very accomplishing like, yes, I did it. Yeah. Moment. I wanted to maybe take a step back and to talk about something a little bit different about your new venture which is fair Trades toolbox. Our industry, unfortunately, it's known to have bad culture and it's known to be male dominated and potentially either like a rough or dangerous place to work. And I was wondering if you could speak to this, because I know that this is your experience and this is why you started Fair Trade's Toolbox, which is the whole mission to change culture and to really work with employers to create a better, more inclusive workspace.

Brandi 26:06

So unfortunately this past year I did have an issue, with a male coworker, at the hospital. And, it escalated to a point where there had to be a police report filed. Oh, no. Yeah. Now by far, that was never the worst thing that's happened to me, but, I almost quit the trade about five years ago, like entirely, which is crazy now to look at because I really think that abuse is cumulative and I'm not a therapist, nor do I pretend to be, but I had a breakdown myself. You can never pinpoint the one thing, but after, pretty much 15 years of just a lot of things happening consistently and, moving branches or going different places, it was, same problems, albeit different people. You try to push forward, especially I'd invested so much in myself and I just kept thinking, the harder I work, I'll eventually be accepted. Or if I just keep going, but. I was never the problem. And no. And unfortunately it took a real breakdown for me to realize that. But this past year, that was my moment for when I'd been thinking about Fair Trades for a while, and then I literally said, that's it. I cannot do this anymore. I have been speaking at Women in Skilled Trades events for almost two decades, encouraging young women to be a part of an industry that literally almost broke me as a woman and as a person. It had physically manifested, I was just mentally shattered. There wasn't anything good going on, and I was completely alone because that's really where I'd gone to a point in my life And I thought to myself, I either am done. Or if not me, then who? I'm gonna be the solution. I know what the problem is and I've been living it for 20 years and I'm like, I am so fricking done with this now. Now it's time. It's not about encouraging women to be a part of this industry cuz who doesn't want an amazing career with benefits and pension. And room for growth. Everybody wants that, but we can't keep them we see women drop out, fourth and fifth year apprentice. They get licensed and they leave. And I don't blame them because no one should have to work through a war zone, just for a paycheck. It's insane to me. And it really became the moment where, this last year, it brought everything to the surface for me. And I did have that kind of, Perspective where I did say to myself, honestly, for the first time, it had nothing to do with me. The companies I worked for, they had a stellar HR policy. Fortune 500 companies. But the culture is brutal. It's toxic. It comes from the top down. And it's unfair. As a female, I've always been the first female wherever I've been, and yet I've been thrown in like a grenade and And left to deal with the fallout, right? No one was there to help and nobody had a conversation with anyone to try to address the issues. I think that now I realize. We have to start from the top and work our way down and it's gonna be really ugly at first and uncomfortable. And I think that's okay. And I think I'm the best person with the experience I bring to the table to have that conversation. And it's not just for the women, it's for the men in the company. Everybody too. Yeah. Cause like you said, it's sometimes it's just they don't know. If I'm the first woman they've ever worked with, how do they know how to respond to me?

Alexis 29:23

I think like what you just said too, of maybe it's gonna be uncomfortable. I think it's already been uncomfortable, but it's only been uncomfortable for one group of people. For me, for you, for like the Guinea pig and the first person that they're like, oh wow, you're the first woman in this position, or the first person in skilled trades. It's already been uncomfortable for you from the very beginning, but we're expected to deal with that. Uncomfort, uncomfortableness, fullness. Yeah, sorry. In silence and kind of by ourselves and without the like, infrastructure to actually talk to somebody or to how are we going to deal with this issue? I think even these big companies, if they have a wonderful HR policy, they don't have the infrastructure in place to actually bring in a diverse staff or bring them into the workplace that. Allows them to be safe at work and to not deal with terrible toxic culture that kind of grows out of, I think, a lack of infrastructure and some bad people and some bad biases.

Brandi 30:20

Personally, we talk about, health and safety at work and we talk about not getting injured on the job. Everyone should be able to go home at the end of their workday. Women are being, verbally abused. Physically abused and sexually assaulted, and how. How do we tolerate that? How is that Okay? But we're really worried if somebody cuts their finger at work, right? Yes. Yeah. Like to me, this is just about overall wellness. And I feel a change for women is a change for everyone because as a mentor for Support Ontario youth, I have young male apprentices that are wanting to quit the trade as well. Because they're being verbally abused and torn down at work. It's a new generation is coming in and I feel like there's a lot to be said for that, where they're not gonna tolerate it and I don't blame them. So we either are going to be left with this huge skilled trades labor shortage. Or we're all gonna wake up and we're gonna realize it's 2023. And you know what? This industry needs to change and it's going to benefit the employer, it's gonna benefit their bottom line. Let's face it, at the end of the day, and all we all have to do is be willing and open to have a conversation and try something different. Because doing the same thing is not working and it's not acceptable anymore.

Alexis 31:33

Freaking amen. And like, thank you so much for creating this organization and having this mission and creating fair trades toolbox so that it took you going to a personal low to be able to have that push to be like, okay, I do need to make a change. I'm so sorry that you went through that because I couldn't imagine having that moment to be like, I've been wanting women to be in this industry and I've been telling them to go into this industry, but this industry is not changing. Organizations like you that are putting in the infrastructure and talking to employers and talking from the very top and going down to the bottom, I think is probably gonna have the biggest impact on ticket skill trades. And I was wondering if you could speak to a little bit of the programs that you guys put in, like what are practices that have helped with culture and that employers can put into place to actually change this

Brandi 32:23

culture? So my baby is still very young. I'm just going to be starting to work with one organization. They reached out because they have, a third year apprentice that's pregnant. She's an electrical apprentice. And obviously they were like, we have no idea what to do with this young woman. And although she's the first, I do hope she's not the last. So the other thing that happens is, this is a company that has, no policies or procedures in place to deal with a pregnant person on the tools, right? Prior to her, this wouldn't have happened. There was no one. I'm helping to work with them so we can help develop things of, figure out the timelines and every individual will be different. Every company will be different. And that's part of where the consultation service is so important is that it can be tailored to the companies. But together we're going to develop and I'm working with also the women in the company. Amazing. Cause they understand how that company operates. We'll figure out what is considered light duty. And assuming of course this is a normal pregnancy, no complications, how long can she wear a harness for? How long can she lift tools for and all of that good stuff. What do we do to support her? Can she go to trade school early, maybe, and the end of her pregnancy, so then she would be in school for the last couple months. Is that an option? So that means working obviously with government. And then the other side of that coin is I wanna see her come back to work. After she's a mom, right? Yes, completely. Yes. Because this is the other caveat is that once a woman has a baby, we never see them come back. So now, How can we make it a safe environment for her? And there'll be provisions in place for her to pump, maybe, flexible hours for daycare how do we support this person coming back because, she's a talented human that contributes to this company and I believe we want her back. So this was my foothold in, and really what that turned into after them reaching out for this one thing In the fall, we're going to hold a town hall with their entire male team and women included, and we're actually gonna make it anonymous. I'm almost saying ask me the most offensive questions that are on your mind. What is something you're afraid of? Are you afraid of sexual harassment? Let's say it. Let's talk about it. Yeah. What is sexual harassment? What makes you not wanna work with that woman? So we're going to set up something, and the woman I'm working with is just incredible that reached out to me. She's so open to all of this. So they're gonna ask the questions, we're gonna give them the answers, and then out of this together we're gonna build this, this beautiful new mission for this company and it's going to help them move forward. And I believe that forward thinking companies like the one I'm talking about, they're gonna lead the charge. And what you're gonna start to see if is, if companies like this end up having, maybe they'll start out only 10% female, but what happens in a couple years? Will they have 30 or 40% women? Maybe they will, and I can bet you that they'll be doing. So much better than the competitors that are left stuck in the stone ages, right? A hundred percent. So that's one example of one of the things I'm doing the other thing that I'm really passionate about, but it's slow going. It's a slow burn. I'm gonna be working with, corrections Canada. To help female offenders, that are serving short term sentences for nonviolent crimes. Think about the skilled trades as a second career. For me it's working with employers to find employers that are willing to give these candidates a chance. And I'll be going into the facility to work one-on-one with the women to get them job ready. I wanna focus on making real change with industry leaders and governments. So working with the employers and really facilitating that overall cultural change. That's what needs to happen, we really need to walk the talk. Because I come from an environment where they talked a huge talk. But it's, but they didn't walk it. Yeah. We didn't walk it. And as a result, it wasn't a healthy environment. And I know, even though they didn't say it, I know I had a lot of male coworkers that suffered as well. Yes. Maybe not to the same degree as me, but it's gonna be good for everyone.

Alexis 36:20

Couldn't agree more. The way to make measurable change is putting in place structures and practices and if you build it, they will come, like to be able to make the organization suitable for a woman who's dealing with pregnancy and to come back as a new young mom and you know what that's gonna build, that's gonna build this system that all of a sudden other moms can come back and come work for this company. It builds lasting change to culture because it creates a support system for a more diverse workforce. And I think that's the bottom goal. That's what we wanna move to. So I think what you're doing is so impactful and so powerful I love that you brought up the corrections program, cuz I was gonna ask you about it but I think that's also a very powerful mission and a powerful organization and I think that could be a really cool program to put in place with government and organizations. I think that's fantastic.

Brandi 37:11

Unfortunately, We're still at this stage where you do need to have a little bit of life experience depending on what type of a company you get into. I myself, I have humble beginnings and I have a unique experience I think that'll resonate with these women prior to getting into the trades. But I think they have what it takes at the end of the day. Obviously not every single person, but I hate the stigma that surrounds, people coming out of corrections like. We're all human, and I think we're all one bad decision away from being there. We're one bad night. We're one bad hanging, in the wrong place at the wrong time. And I just feel like society as a whole, the first thing people do are looking to check to see if you have a record. And there's so much struggle, but I feel like, again, like fair trades toolbox, the time is right. Because when there's a shortage of something like skilled trades, labor, people are forced out of their comfort zone. And now it's an employee based market. Employers are, it's the time to really make change for employers and companies in industry. And this is part of that change too. I think we need to look, at the best human being for the job and what we bring to the table as individuals? Leaving all the rest of it behind. And I know not everyone is going to be a candidate. However, I just know in my gut, I just feel like it's gonna be good.

Alexis 38:25

And you don't need everyone to be a candidate. If you can change the life of 10%, 15% of these women, like you might as well take that chance, right? That's a, still a very powerful thing. We've talked about it on the point of view of an employer and how do you change culture if you're a young woman and you're going through it right now and you're in this area. I've been in bad toxic environments as well. Could you maybe speak to, what helped you get through it? Any advice for these young women, if they're going through something similar, what helped you?

Brandi 38:54

That's a great question. For me, is I tried very early on, just to be one of the guys, and I think that works against you. I think now I realize looking back, it's better just to be yourself and then you find your fit. And I really encourage my students, male or female, don't worry about the money. I say find a company where you feel like you're gonna enjoy being there. You resonate with the values of the employer or the people that you're gonna be working for. You want to work for them. And you get that vibe with people. Number one, be happy where you're at, the money will come. It's inevitable. There's just, there's too much of a need out there. There's too much of a demand, right? Number two, as hard as it is for a woman, try not to take it personally. So at the end of the day, these guys don't hang out with me and have Sunday dinner. They don't know me as a person, which is to my advantage, right? Let them underestimate you. And try just to like water off a duck's back. Try not to get too wrapped up in the sweethearts and the honeys and all the comments. There's bigger fish to fry, right? So try not to get wrapped up in that, because like you and I have mentioned a couple times, sometimes it's not meant intentionally or out of spite, they just don't know any better, right? Which doesn't make an excuse for them, but it does help you get through the day. When you have to go for a cry and you gotta let it out, do it,

Alexis 40:13

man. Yeah, that's good advice.

Brandi 40:17

Go to the bathroom, get it out, wipe your eyes, put your big girl pants on, and then you get back out. As women, I think we feel like, crying is a weakness, but it's just, instead of punching a wall or throwing something like a man might do, we cry. And that's okay, because you gotta get it out. And to that note, one of my best pieces of advice is, waterproof mascara. You got that in your toolbox for sure. And then the last thing I know that really helped me is I only had one friend that came up in the tools with me as a female. I started off way back when in this pre-apprentice program when I had a hard time getting into the trades. Her and me, her and I today are still tight. and without her, I would still never be sitting here today. She took the call for me. I'll never forget sitting in my truck. My first construction site was 300 guys and me and I showed up early and I was watching all these guys walk onto the job site. And I remember calling her going, I can't do it. I'm not doing it. I'm leaving. I was freaking out. And she goes, this will be the hardest thing you have to do, by the way, she lied. And she just said the same thing to me. She goes, remember why you're doing this? Remember the long-term goals? You earned your spot there, Brandy. And she goes, you just put your head down and you go to work. Because at the end of the day, I'm a journey person. Not a female journey person. No. I'm journey person. You're a journey

Alexis 41:37

person. Yeah. You deserve to be

Brandi 41:38

there. I wrote the same test as all my male counterparts. I've earned my spot and I don't, I gotta tune, note the noise, right? So having a female, to lean on, to listen to, that's in the trades. My family's amazing. Doesn't resonate with me. It doesn't make me feel better when my partner or family goes, you can do it, right? Yeah they don't know, right? But when another woman who's in the trenches with me says, you know what, Brandy? Suck it up. You're just having a moment. And I'm like, yeah. And then you just. Yeah. I listen to some angry music and away we go. Rage against the machine works, Panera. Yeah. Whatever. A support system is key. Letting it out when you have to. Try to find a healthy outlet and get it out. You have to do that. If you're able to, if you think you're in a bad spot, which I wish I would've recognized earlier. Make the change before it's too late. Like for me, I was beaten down to a point where I honestly felt like I couldn't get a job anywhere else. I felt like I was. Yeah. The worst mechanic in the world. So try to recognize those signs early that you are in an abusive work relationship. And get out. Because there's too much work out there. You no longer need to stay in one place. Don't let them make you feel like you're just there as the token female, right? If any woman I know that's working out on the tools today, she had to work a thousand times harder to get there, and we gotta remind ourselves of that.

Alexis 42:59

I think like sometimes we do get kinda locked down into that to be like, oh my goodness, they're doing me a favor. And again, it's kinda right. It's putting yourself in that position that you're not deserving of it to be like, no, I did the same hours, I did the same work experience. I got my apprenticeship. I'm a journey person. And on top of that, like I had a bunch of biases and prejudice on top of me while I was doing all of those things, so I fought my way through. I deserve my place in this. I really do hope that our culture does change because I resonated too much with the mascara. I was like, oh yeah, that's a good tip. And I was like, we shouldn't have that as a tip. That should be like waterproof mascara. But it's

Brandi 43:35

sometimes the jobs wet too, like for water pipe first. It's good to have it too, right? So I mean it works all, both sides, but still it's true.

Alexis 43:43

But I do think like that point of letting it out and having a release and having friendships and community within these industries are so important. Until we can get past the stone age. like having my girlfriends within STEM and them being a figure that I can cry on, I can vent, I can talk about my frustrations. They can also tell me some tough love and to be like, Nope. You're fine. You got this. Go have a cry, take a coffee. But like again, this industry and this job isn't the be all, end all. You have a life outside of it. You have people outside of it like just take a break, reframe, go big, and then come back and do this. Put on loud angry music and get to work.

Brandi 44:23

Oh man. Yeah. I had a couple jobs where I had to work with, I knew people that were, I knew my days were gonna need be nightmares. And the whole drive to the job site were either super, like female empowerment songs and then on the way home, it'd be super angry music, right? You gotta do whatever it takes. And sometimes only you can be your best cheerleader. Just keep your eye on the prize, right? And know too, like we're all making a difference out there. All of us. Like the visibility is key your podcast, what you do every day. Thank you myself and every, young woman out there. We're all making a difference every day. And I guess that's part of the grind that's concerns me is like the needle hasn't moved in my industry for 20 years. I represent 0.4% of my trade. That doesn't speak to recruitment, that speaks to retention. We have to keep up the visibility. But then at the same time, that's why myself with what I have under my belt in the field, I'm gonna take up that charge and start instead of breaking that glass ceiling. I guess I'm coming from the top down

Alexis 45:23

now. So breaking it down from a ceiling to like lobby basically.

Brandi 45:28

I'm smashing through the roof now. It's, that's it. I'm all done.

Alexis 45:31

I absolutely love that. Sometimes it feels like the needle hasn't moved in 20, 30 years. I do think that right now we're at this really crazy time, I think with social media, with visibility with representation, that you can just feel it, that it's about to change and it's about to start. I was wondering if you could speak to that and maybe what's something right now that's giving you hope?

Brandi 45:51

I definitely think what gives me hope is, just that. I think that more women are starting to use their voice. I posted this really emotional video a couple months ago about what happened to me at the hospital. Little snippet of it, I guess. And after I did that, it was almost like this me too skilled movement. I guess I had just this flood of messages and so many women are like, yeah, I thought that too. Once I was licensed it would get better. I was at a big event at Conestoga College. It's called Gil Leval Trades, and it's an amazing event of 500 young women come through Wow. Volunteers. And I was leaving the building at the end of the day. And this, this female, journey person comes up to me and she said to me, I filed,, a sexual harassment complaint against my boss because of your video. Oh, amazing. And she said, instead of blaming myself and just, and sweeping it under the carpet as I have done before. Cause this is not her first, she says, I decided to use my voice and have the courage. Oh. And I feel like that in itself, if, imagine what would happen to the culture of this industry if every single woman out there working on the tools today just said, nuh no more. I am not going to just look the other way at this. I'm gonna actually say something about it. I do feel it's percolating. I feel like just the time is right. We've got this perfect storm of a shortage of skilled labor. They have no choice now, but to look to the other 50%. And we are not going to tolerate being treated the way we have been for the past two decades. And you know what? I am going to ensure that this industry. Starts to bend to be more inclusive. And the culture turns into more, it's gotta be healthier. We have to start thinking about the wellness of all of our employees. And young women, like the woman I met the other day, and also just the flood of messages I get in my inbox. Yeah. It's just incredible. I really feel like the time is right and that's part of my motivation to strike while the iron's hot, right? I really started doing this and I'm like, I don't even know if this is gonna work. But like those early days of the cabin, I'm totally ready to at least give it my all and fail. And that's okay if that happens, but I really can't see that happening just because of there's such a need for it,? We're hungry for change, so for the last two decades, I guess that's been my penance and I can use all of that now in order to help, the next generation will be able to thrive. And where I really just survived. I like, what you were saying, you have to do all this stuff, and the whole time I had somebody's boot on my throat. It's time for that to change for the next generation. And it benefits everyone, which is, which I think the best part

Alexis 48:35

It's a win-win win. It benefits everybody. It benefits employees, it benefits the bottom line. It benefits culture, it benefits the next generation. I think what you're doing is so important. It's a wonderful organization and not only is it the right time, but I think that the younger generation also wants it as well, right? It is just this movement and I could see that being so hopeful and so impactful to have these young women message you to be like, you made such an a, a difference in my life, whether you know it or not, seeing you stand up and seeing you use your voice allowed me to do the same thing. Something that's like kind of catching wildfire that's really hard to put back once it's out. And that's what I hope.

Brandi 49:11

That's what I hope. Yeah.

Alexis 49:13

Brandi, thank you so much for coming onto the show today. I just, I really appreciated it. It was so lovely to chat with you. And thank you for all the good that you're doing for the community. I think it's fantastic.

Brandi 49:23

Thank you so much, Alexis. It's been an honor. I love what you're doing too, and it's so great to have the female camaraderie out there too. So thank you so much. I appreciate it. You're

Alexis 49:33

welcome. You're welcome. You're welcome. I appreciate everything that you can do and thank you so much for coming on. Thank you guys for listening, for watching. We appreciate you as well, and we will see you next Wednesday.